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The Clairity Podcast
The Clairity podcast encourages our walk in relationship with Jesus. We cover topics that real people experience all the time and seek clarity through Jesus in His word, and through our experiences with Him. The Clairity podcast offers practical ideas and practices for the everyday believer who is attempting to navigate the life they’ve been given. The Clairity podcast also offers hope, light, and peace to those navigating difficult circumstances and tough questions, no matter your background, religious affiliation, or location.
The Clairity Podcast
Two Witnesses, One Lord
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oin us for this episode of the Clairity Podcast where we sit down with Jon Daich and discuss some of the books he's written, and his journey out of the LDS church.
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Jon was raised Catholic, and later joined the LDS Church. In this episode we discuss the Bible side by side with the Book of Mormon. Can you still believe in the Book of Mormon without believing in the LDS Church? And does the Book of Mormon testify of the God of the Bible?
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Tune in for all this and more on this week's episode of The Clairity Podcast!
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Purchase Jon's Books:
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Witnesses-One-Lord-Comparative/dp/B0GYLRT942/ref=sr_1_2?crid=31QSSCJHXX3GB&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.n9njGzJMfkB8DwK7vdGJmHrDwIECql24fBRm_DBFZIg.vOR1zMiSsAsdtQ9VSzukvFDZwgUEimO19WhpAip70rs&dib_tag=se&keywords=Jon+Daich&qid=1782505537&sprefix=jon+daich%2Caps%2C191&sr=8-2
https://www.amazon.com/Have-Treated-Lightly-Things-Received-ebook/dp/B0H3RBDJDZ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=31QSSCJHXX3GB&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.n9njGzJMfkB8DwK7vdGJmHrDwIECql24fBRm_DBFZIg.vOR1zMiSsAsdtQ9VSzukvFDZwgUEimO19WhpAip70rs&dib_tag=se&keywords=Jon+Daich&qid=1782505537&sprefix=jon+daich%2Caps%2C191&sr=8-1
Hey everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of the Clarity Podcast. This week's guest is John Deitch, and John is from Leighton, Utah, and he's 69 years old. And I'm really excited to interview John today. It's very rare that we get people from the older generation, and there's so much wisdom that people from the older generation have to offer us. And so I'm just really excited to hear his story. Everyone has a journey they are walking. And along that road, we are met with bottles, road bugs, brain, storms, fog.
SPEAKER_01But through it all.
SPEAKER_02Tell us about your religious upbringing.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, I came from, well, my mother and father originally married in the temple. I was blessed in the temple and so forth. But that relationship, my mom and dad didn't work too well. And so by the time I was two years old, they had divorced. And my mom remarried a non-member and really didn't have anything to do with the church since then. We attended the Presbyterian church when I was young a few times. My dad was a Mason. My stepdad was a Mason. And my real father left, and I never had anything to do with him since then. And my stepfather adopted my mom's kids, all of us. There were five of us. And, you know, so I was brought up really not too much of a religious background, but all my cousins are, it was LDS. And uh my mother's family traced all the way back to uh Joseph Smith time. So they were pioneers in the church. And uh so I have I I found out later in life that I had that Mormon history that I didn't know anything about. And I attended a Taylor reunion one time, and that's when I learned more and more about uh my ancestry. And my uh one of my ancestors was had four wives, and he was from Pleasantville or Pleasantview and uh had the whole thing. So he was steeped in Mormonism. And so, but it wasn't until I was uh I got married and I joined the church uh right after I got married. Uh and I always had a an affinity, I guess, for for Jesus Christ. I I love the stories, I I love Bible stories, I love Bible movies. Um so I had a I had a liking there. They always influenced me, but I can't say I really grew up too religious at all, uh not until I joined the church.
SPEAKER_02So, what was your understanding of Jesus Christ as a kid since you didn't join the church until you were older? Like, did you have an understanding of who Jesus Christ was and what he did for us?
SPEAKER_00Uh not a great deal. I couldn't say that I knew much about him. I just knew, I believed there was God, and I believed in Jesus Christ that they existed, and um I really didn't know too much more than that, but um, I felt like I had a natural affinity for that. And when me and my wife were dating, we talked about religion. She came from a Mormon family, and uh there was that expectation or hope that they would be married in the temple and all that. And so as we talked religion, I found out I had the same thoughts that she did. Uh I I aligned my thoughts aligned with a lot of the Mormon church, uh, I felt like. So it wasn't much of a stretch for me to join and and express more of my feelings about religion. And then, you know, what really motivated me, I have to say, is my children. That was a huge responsibility that I felt. And I just wanted to do the best I could to raise them with uh a belief in God and and an understanding of that. So I wanted to raise my children in that environment. So we joined the church, and we've been uh active members since you know day one of our marriage and uh till maybe a few years ago when we woke up.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so tell us about what Mormonism was like for you. So you got married, you joined the Mormon church, were you sealed in the temple? Were you holding callings? What was the culture and the experience like for you in your young married years?
SPEAKER_00We uh I joined the church and then got, you know, we were married, but then I joined the church after we were married and then got married in the temple a year later from pretty much my baptism. You know, we when we were first married, we had the missionaries over for discussions and they challenged me to be baptized, and I readily accepted, and because I I wanted that in my life. I wanted Christ in my life, and so I and I felt like what the what my wife was telling me that the church taught and so forth just aligned with with what I felt. So when I joined the church and then got married in the temple, I did a I read profusely. I read a lot uh of things. I read McConkey's, most of McConkey's work, uh, read the Book of Mormon. I didn't focus on the Bible as much at that time, but you know, I was reading a lot of the Mormon uh information, Joseph Smith's history and and just uh all those kinds of things. And uh I had a good Sunday school teacher that um was just an incredible researcher, and he just brought a lot of insights and interesting things, and so um yeah, I just read a lot and tried to study all that I could about the church in those early years.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So did you have an understanding of the Bible um at all? Like because you were raised not in Mormonism, did you have an understanding of what the Bible said or what it said in comparison to the Bible?
SPEAKER_00A little bit. That's what, you know, growing up, I we had a uh a story, a Bible storybook, and I would look through that or ask my mom to read some things to me, or you know, and and we would talk a little bit about it. And she had some background herself because she got married in the temple with my my real father. And uh but I didn't really feel like she had a strong um testimony of Christ per se, because she didn't really uh voice it. She did voice it. Um But her and her her sisters and her parents were you know active in the church, but they because my mom was now married to a non-member, they didn't really put pressure on him and they got along with him just fine. Um so he was a good man. Uh I had a little different opinion growing up, but uh when I became married myself with children, I I felt like here's a man who took on five children, married my mother with five children, and he had one, and I just had a lot more respect for him as I come to understand what that really meant.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. Okay, so you talked about how your children really made the difference for you. So tell us a little bit about your Mormon dynamic in your home. Like, were you doing scripture study and family home evening and going to all the church activities? Like, what did that look like for you in your home?
SPEAKER_00We did go to all the church activities. We attended church. I would say, you know, we were a 99% or, you know, we didn't miss much. And we tried the home evening stuff, but that didn't always go well. It was a little difficult. Uh, and I don't want to blame it on my wife, but uh she didn't grow up with a real active uh family home evening scenario either. And so she had they had some issues with with some of that too. And so there was some dynamics there. So that when I tried to do it, you know, we did some, especially when they were younger, but sometimes it was a struggle, and so we would, you know, we might have been not have been the ideal family home evening going type family, but uh, you know, we would have family prayer, and you know, we wouldn't uh we wouldn't get up in the morning and do it every morning, but you know, different occasions and so forth. So I tried my best without undue pressure. I didn't I didn't believe, you know, my wife often would talk about how she didn't appreciate, you know, this any guilt trips or any pressure or that kind of thing. It should be more natural and and and loving and and what we want to do and not something we feel pressured to do. And so it's tough to balance that. And um I tried and might not have been always successful at it, but I felt like I was trying. And uh and like I say, we were really good at going to church and and accepting callings and that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What kind of callings did you hold in in those years that you were a really faithful member?
SPEAKER_00Well, I I never was a bishop nor a bishop's counselor. I was in Elders Corn presidencies, never an elders corn president. And uh I was made a 70 pretty early on. And um, so I was made a 70 and then and did some missionary home stuff, you know, where they they had the 70s do some missionaries work in the stake. So I was a 70 for a while, and then I moved, or I moved our home into Leighton, and then they did away with 70s, and I was made a high priest when I was like in my early 30s. And that was unusual. I'm going to quorum meetings with the high priests, and I'm looking around. I'm the youngest guy in there most of the most of the time.
SPEAKER_02Uh so Yeah, and times have changed because now that's not unusual. Now they're they're getting the younger guys like, well, and they combined the high priests, and they combined all that, and they're pushing the younger guys up into higher callings like faster and faster. So okay, so um were you guys dedicated temple attenders? What was your temple attendance like? Okay.
SPEAKER_00Uh well, I'd like to have gone more, you know, sometimes, but I didn't want to, again, I was balancing too much pressure on my wife to go versus not. So, you know, we always had that encouragement, go once a month, and different times we tried to do that. And uh, you know, I'd sometimes I'd go early morning and catch it in the morning. And uh I held pretty much a temple recommend for 40 years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I like to lay groundwork in these interviews to show people like a lot of the people that are leaving the church were the really dedicated, faithful members of the church. Like this, you're not a man that just left the church out of laziness or ignorance or anything like that. This is about you were so dedicated and Jesus showed you something different. So let's dive into your awakening journey.
SPEAKER_00Let me let me give you one. Well, this kind of the start of my awakening journey.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'll admit I got the COVID shot. Okay. And I I said to a friend, a co-worker, I says, you know, if if I die on this hill, I'm good because I followed the prophet. I I said that to myself. I'm following the prophet, and if I die on this hill, then I can stand before God and say, hey, I was following the counsel of the prophet. I'm, you know, so I feel good. It wasn't a week later that everything changed. I I, you know, it just is like a week later, because it was during that time I was investigating some things, but it was like a week later I woke up. It happened rather quickly.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00And um my wife never got the shot. She just never felt good about it. And uh she didn't say much to me about getting it. Part of my pressure, I guess, of getting it was my work. If I didn't get the shot at work, I had a whole bunch more restrictions on me, what I could do. You know, I had to wear I would have to have worn the mask uh 100% of the time at work if I didn't get the shot, and I did not like that idea at all. I will say I was a little hesitant to even wear the mask at church. I didn't like wearing it, and I didn't I wasn't 100% wearing it at church really either. I was about a half and half. I I wanted to comply because the bishop was trying to set an example and I was trying to follow the good example, but I still felt like, nah, I don't want to do that. But it was about a week later, uh so getting into my woke part of this. My wife was always reading things too, and she had read some Carolyn Pearson stuff uh long, you know, probably a number of years ago that she read that, and she was discussing polygamy in this book that she was reading. And we had a little bit of a discussion about polygamy, and I just felt like, okay, those sound pretty bad what she's saying, but I don't understand all of this. So I'm gonna just put it on the shelf, and we'll understand later when we pass away, I suppose, in the next life. And so I'm not gonna worry about it. I trust our leaders, I trust Joseph Smith, and so I'm just gonna put that one on the shelf. I can't explain it to you, uh, but I think it'll all work out in the end. So that's kind of where polygamy sat with us. My wife didn't like it at all. I didn't understand it, and I put it on the shelf. That's where that's where it lied.
SPEAKER_02Right. So was this before 2020 or right?
SPEAKER_00This was before 2020. That so that was the foundation, you know, of what I thought about polygamy and some of the other doctrines that the church did that I didn't really understand. Like I really didn't understand the concept of the temple because I just felt like it was a hodgepodge of things thrown together.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And later I found out that's exactly what it was.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um so, but recently in 2020, my wife has, you know, she'd spent a lot of time on Facebook. She was the she'd started the the Ward Facebook group. And so she was pretty active in that and managing it for the ward. And uh she came across some things that she would share with me. Um she uh introduced me, well, she had hooked up somehow or another with Justin Smith. Dustin Smith.
SPEAKER_02Dustin Smith?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the one who passed away.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay, yeah. Uh-huh. That's Dustin Smith.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. He uh we got kind of connected with him. And so my wife I don't know, I don't I can't say she was necessarily corresponding with him, but uh we got involved with a couple websites and I think that's probably through him and his efforts that we come to uh hear about who killed Joseph Smith the movie. So I watched that and I thought, wow, that was that was something. But I didn't wake up from that. Okay. I thought, wow, that's really interesting. And um but I wasn't I didn't wake up. I I I still believed the church, I still believed everything. But I'm now starting to see some of different information, and I got uh hooked up into the hemlock knotts information. And so my wife showed me this um page and and showed me the polygamy timeline that was in Hemlock Knotts. And then when I was I reviewed the polygamy timeline, and after I finished that, that's when I woke up. I thought, oh my heck, these evidences of Joseph Smith's polygamy is forty and fifty years after he died. And I thought, oh my heck, that's not good information, that's not reliable stuff at all. And then in in that same document that showed the timeline and and other things, there was uh page on the condemnation of the church. And then I I read section 124 and it said right there, if you didn't if they didn't build the Nau temple in the time allotted, the church would be rejected. And then in that document it explained how the church didn't finish the Nau temple and all the all the information surrounding that. And I thought, wow, they they were rejected. They took on false doctrine, they were sent into the wilderness. All of to me, that to me was clear evidence that they were rejected by the Lord. And it just and so I just started to absorb all that information, becoming acquainted with uh these people, Dustin Smith, and I went down to um a meeting down in I don't know, Springville somewhere, and met a bunch of other people. And there I met people like Dustin Grady and Dustin Smith and and a whole bunch of other people that were woke and on the same page. And so I started reading all the forbidden stuff, you might say.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh. So what was some of all the forbidden stuff that you read?
SPEAKER_00Well, just uh, you know, listening to anti-church material. And I didn't really consider this anti-church material because this was not Denver Snuffer, this was not um the older stuff, you know, maybe D. Michael Quinn and some of these other critical writers of the church history. This was current research done on the Joseph Smith Papers. And I'm thinking, wow, this is the church's own history. And then I saw, you know, then we got us got hooked into Michelle Stone's podcast, and so we're watching those. All of them. And I'm thinking, wow. And we see where the history was altered by Brigham Young. And and so, yeah, uh I started immersing myself in all that material. And I never lost a testimony of the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith. I still believe in those, but I I feel the history is it's written down. Uh it's in section 101 where we see the parable of the redemption of Zion, and it lays out the exact thing that happened to the church. I mean, in the Missouri time period, the people were wondering why didn't the Lord protect us, why didn't things be successful in Missouri? And that's when section 101 came out and explained why. And uh the people just kept failing at keeping the commandments. And that's where I come up uh the second book that I've done, and it'll be posted on Amazon soon, is called You Have Treated the Things You Have You Have Treated Lightly The Things You Have Received And so that Book is about the condemnation of the church and what happened and explains section 101 and uh how the church was condemned and still is. And you know, the purpose for the books in the first place was to, in a sense, to document my document my own journey of finding out what really happened and kind of laying it out because uh people that I'm aware of that are still active in the church, I've tried to share a little bit with them what I could, as much as they're willing to listen. And and they just pretty much I can't go there, they tell me, I can't go there. Uh I believe Joseph was a polygamist, and I believe all that is of God, and 132 is good scripture, and and I just keep saying, Have you read that? I mean, really read that. And and they're like me, they like I used to be, and that well, I just put it on the shelf and I'll we'll learn about it later. And so, but it's my effort, these books is my effort to lay down what I believe now and uh share it, and hopefully it can help others.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. So we'll get into talking about your book super soon. So tell me about how waking up, so it sounds like you woke up to history, you woke up to polygamy, um, things like that. What did this do to your behaviors in the church? Like a lot of people, they stopped paying tithing, they stopped going to church. Kind of what did that change your, like how did it change your actions in the church? What was the change for you?
SPEAKER_00Well, um, I was currently uh first counselor in the Elders Cohn presidency as I'm waking up. And My wife is is reading more stuff, and she started to share some scriptures on the web, the Facebook, the Ward Facebook page. You've probably seen Julie Wetzel, her material.
SPEAKER_01Uh huh.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. She shared one of Julie Wetzel's scriptures on the Ward Facebook page. And it has all the color coding and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_02Of the doctrine of Christ, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So she thought it was really good, you know, really accurate interpretations of the scripture. So she posted one. And the next thing I know, the bishop shows up at my door.
SPEAKER_02Wait, what? Because she posted a post with the scripture outlining the doctrine of Christ in it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
unknownOh my goodness.
SPEAKER_02Okay, wait. So then the bishop shows up at your door, and what happened next?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh I kind of thought to myself, I thought, oh, my wife outta this.
SPEAKER_02So were you guys like fully awake at this time, like aware that the church is under condemnation?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, pretty much. And I thought, my wife out of this. So I'm gonna go ahead and expose myself, so to speak, to the bishop. Oh, wow. Because he he's up my doorstep and I says, he's he's wondering, you know, hey, is there anything wrong? Are you guys okay? I mean, the scripture wasn't anything bad. It was good.
SPEAKER_02Do you remember what verse it was?
SPEAKER_00No, I don't remember.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00But I think somebody else in the ward saw it and questioned it and told the bishop on us.
SPEAKER_02That's wild. It outlines the doctrine of Christ.
SPEAKER_00I know, I know. But it's something people haven't heard of before.
SPEAKER_02Right, right.
SPEAKER_00And so I invite the bishop in, and and I figure, okay, I'm gonna let him know where my head is at. So we sat down and we talked, and I guess I think the first thing I said is, I don't believe Joseph Smith was ever a polygonist. And I shared with him that, and I shared with him, I think the church is under condemnation and still is, and I shared with him that. Those are the two main things that I can remember, and we'll probably discuss some other things. And the bishop just couldn't respond. He says, Well, I don't know about any of that. I just know that President Nelson is a prophet of God and I'm gonna follow him. And I just says, Well, I don't. I pretty much said, I don't believe he's a prophet. You know, so that was pretty that was a big leap from where it was like a week ago, to then. And so he he decided a week later or so he came by again with his first counselor and wanted to talk some fur to talk further. His first counselor was probably one up one of the best scriptorians, I think, in the ward. He would teach gospel doctrine a lot, and I really appreciated his lessons. They were always in depth. He was the most well-versed scriptural scriptorian in the ward, I felt like. And so he brought him over. So now they're both talking to me. And I'm telling them Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist, and I'm expressing my what I why I believe that. And he just says, Well, have you read Brian Hell's? Uh, yeah, I know about him. And they said, You should read read Brian Hells' information, because you know, that's the good information on Joseph's polygamy. And I says, Well, I know about his information, and I I don't believe it. And so I gave him some information and he kind of challenged me. He says, I'll, you know, I'll prove to you Joseph Smith is a polygamist. And he was going to go do some research. And then, do you remember that little pamphlet that came out called uh it was a polygamy knot? Have you ever seen this?
SPEAKER_02No, I haven't.
SPEAKER_00This was passed out at uh uh Justin Griffin's movie premiere.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00The second one.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00During the second one, they had a box of these and they were passing them out. And it is it is an incredible research that somebody, this Lindsley Taylor put together. It's a great handout, and they were just giving them out to everybody. So I grabbed a bunch and I gave my second counsel or first counselor in the bishopric one of these. I says, read this. And uh never got back with me again. He couldn't prove to me, or he gave up on the idea of trying to prove to me that Joseph was a polygamist.
SPEAKER_02There is so much in the Book of Mormon against whoremongers. And so it's really weird to me that we promote in the church something that truly I would consider to be under the category of being a whoremonger. Like it's really wild to me that like the the true believing LDS members, they don't see like how morally incorrect it is. Like I just blows my mind.
SPEAKER_00I've I've read the Book of Mormon three times, at least three times, since I woke up. And uh I felt like I'm reading it for the first time. Things have made more sense to me now than it ever has. I I was I was stunned when I read 2 Nephi 31 or 3 Nephi 11. I was just stunned. I says, I've never seen this before. I truly, truly believe a veil has been lifted from my eyes. I truly believe that because one minute I'm here, and the next I'm here, and I just think the Lord, I I believe wholeheartedly the Lord's hand was in that, lifting the veil from my eyes and to see that from here on out. I can see things in the Book of Mormon that I've never seen before.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I remember reading Helaman after I uh got out of the church and just feeling so awakened to like all the things it was talking about secret combinations and thinking, this is talking about the Mormon church.
SPEAKER_00It is.
SPEAKER_02How did I not see this?
SPEAKER_00Oh, it is. And part of my journey too is I I read, I don't know if you this apocalyptic commentary. Um, I read that and I thought I put a I put together a paper, I took every Isaiah scripture in the Book of Mormon, okay, and put them in a word document, and then I went through his book here and I inserted in the in the in the verses the some of the commentary from Gilead's book, describing what this means, what this means, and what this is symbolizing, and so on and so forth. And that was a real awakening as well, because it just makes me laugh that uh the church has never claimed to really understand Joe uh the book of Isaiah much. Okay, uh that's always been a running joke. You know, nobody can get through the books of Isaiah, nobody can understand those. And I bought different books throughout the years on Isaiah, and they're from Mormon authors and so forth, and I've read those and trying to understand it. I still didn't come away with any understanding of what Isaiah was trying to tell us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, all the books, Isaiah for airheads and like Isaiah for dummies. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I did it still didn't wake me up. I still didn't understand it. I feel like I do now. Because Isaiah is talking about us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's about us and about the church and its wickedness and its leaders and it being led astray and what was to take place in the last day. And that's my third book, is on is taking what I did, you know, a couple years ago, and now I'm putting it in book form. So that'll be my third book.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so what was your relationship with Jesus Christ like when you were in the church versus now? Like how would you describe a shift or a difference in your relationship with Christ?
SPEAKER_00Well, I do feel it's changed. Um I felt like that in order to cl go get close to Christ, I had to fulfill my calling, I had to go to the temple, I had to live the the covenants I've made and and uh do all the church you know uh things that uh I'm asked of, and just try to be the best person I can be. Upon waking up, I feel like um uh Joseph Smith's lectures on faith really kind of hit me. I went back and read those, and what really stuck to me was uh in order to understand and exercise true faith in Jesus Christ, you have to you have to understand his nature, who he is. And I felt like, okay, in the past I believed he was possibly a polygamist, and that heaven was as the church described it, where we would have our own planet or something, and we would have multiple wives, and and that and that was his nature. And now, no, no. Um do I have it totally figured out? No. I think I think the nature of God and Christ is still uh a difficult thing to wrap our heads around, and uh, but I do believe that we come closer to him by living his true gospel. That's the doctrine of Christ. And and that I just wish my I could have understood this when I my children were growing up, but we have to learn to listen to the spirit. And I've I feel like it's a trial and error process. In other words, we've been told that there are many voices in our head, so to speak. There are many spirits that can influence us. And so we if we listen to one and we we believe it might be from Christ, and we do that thing, and if the fruit is good, then you were most likely right. And that's the way we have to conduct our lives. We try to listen to the spirit of Christ and do the good things that we think we understand, and keep managing, you know, how we evaluate that, and learn to listen to the spirit. And that's that's really what we all should be doing is learning to exercise that uh ability to hear the spirit of the Lord. And that's what I'm trying to do. And I feel that's drawing me closer. I I truly feel that I have received, I'll call them tender mercies. I don't claim to have received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. I haven't, I don't claim to have received that. But I do claim to have received his tender mercies and his guidance in um, you know, stepping away from the church. I I need to eliminate those false doctrines, those false traditions. I feel like that was necessary. So uh I needed to step away from the church. I didn't eliminate my membership yet, um, because I've invested a heck of a lot of time in the scripture app. You know, I've got tons of highlights and references and and things that grew exponentially when I when I woke up uh and and reading the scriptures more, and and I was tagging things and marking things up, and I've got a lot invested in that. And so I didn't want to lose access to that. I kept asking people who'd been excommunicated or removed their records, and some say they lost access to it as soon as they didn't have their names were not on the church records anymore, and others didn't. And I think it all comes down to what the clerk does in your ward. There's something they turn on or off that can give you access or not. And so I I haven't ever reduced my I haven't eliminated my membership simply because I wanted access to it. But, you know, if the time comes, like I don't know if this book must any of my books become popular in any sense, the church might not like it because they're not really uh church favorable, they're gospel favorable.
SPEAKER_02Totally, absolutely. Okay, so let's get into your book. So I have your first book here, and it's called Two Witnesses of One Lord, the Bible and the Book of Mormon. So I've read a part of this book, and um, I think that this is the kind of book that I wish I would have had when I was beginning to wake up and questioning the Book of Mormon, because it so beautifully outlines how the Bible and the Book of Mormon are truly testifying of the same thing of Christ, right? And so tell us, John, a little bit about what inspired you to write your first book.
SPEAKER_00Well, when I I'm members of a few other Facebook groups, Christians versus Mormons, that kind of thing. And and um oftentimes, you know, people are always saying, you know, the Book of Mormon's faults, Joseph Smith made it up and and all these kinds of things. And um, you know, I had like I said, I read the Book of Mormon like three times since I woke up. Well, I've read the New Testament the same. I immersed myself in the New Testament as well. And I just thought, these people are not getting it. They're focusing on, you know, a little point here or point there in the Book of Mormon and saying it's totally false. And they're not even looking at, okay, what's the substance of the Book of Mormon? What doctrine is in the Book of Mormon that you feel is false? They don't know that. They just say Joseph Smith's not a prophet, and he the Book of Mormon, therefore, is false. And they they don't explain, they explain what the doctrine is. Um I'll sidetrack just a little bit. I was uh going to lunch in in Salt Lake where I worked, and I'm standing in line, and some kid comes up behind me, and he says, Would you mind if I shared uh Jesus Christ with you? And I says, Sure. And then I'm waking up this time, and so I says, I would be happy to discuss Christ with you. And so we sat down for lunch there, and he couldn't believe what I was saying, because I was showing support for the Book of Mormon, but not the LDS church, and support for some of what he was teaching. And so uh we had a great conversation, and and I says, and he he bought me lunch that time, and I says, you know, let's meet next week and I'll buy you lunch. And so next week he brings his pastor with him. And so now there's a group of them. And so I'm meeting with a group of these people from this church, and we're talking about the Book of Mormon and all this type of stuff, and I'm just it's blowing them away because they're not used to talking to a Mormon that believes what I was believing. This was new to them. And I continued uh a relationship with this pastor for over a year. We started going to lunch all the time, meeting together and discussing things, and he kept, you know, explaining to me things in the Book of Mormon that he felt like were not true. And I'm trying to talk to him about the doctrine of Christ that I think is in both books, just trying to explain that they're both a testimony of Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely. I think there's a stronghold within mainstream mainstream Christianity where they take certain verses that apply to the mainstream beliefs, and that's what they know in the Bible. And so they do the same thing to the Book of Mormon, where they take the little tiny points that they can prove that the Book of Mormon is false, supposedly, and they hone in on those verses. But I think a lot of the mainstream Christians that have really heavy criticism of the Book of Mormon, I don't think they've read it all the way through. Because they don't see that it testifies of the same Jesus that is testified of in the Bible, the Jesus that died on the cross for us to save us from our sins. That's the Jesus that testifies of in the Book of Mormon.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. This this pastor, um, he was one of the most well-versed scriptori's ever heard. This kid, he's like in his mid-30s, and he knew scriptures like at the back of his hand. He was incredible. But he didn't quite have the same understanding. Like when I spoke to him about the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, it's in the Bible, it's in the Book of Mormon, but he believed the Bible, when it spoke about fire, was a consuming fire of condemnation.
SPEAKER_02Interesting.
SPEAKER_00He didn't at all interpret it the fire as a purification and sanctification. So he had a completely different understanding. And um so it just, you know, again, this book was born out of the idea that I wanted to demonstrate that the Bible and the Book of Mormon testify to the same Jesus Christ. I've even told some people in different comments and posts that, okay, if you don't believe the Bible or the Book of Mormon, that's fine. If you believe the Book of Mormon, if you believe the Bible, you're good. Yeah. You're good. That's all you that's all you need. You don't need the Book of Mormon if you already believe the Bible. But I st you know, I didn't say this, but I would question if they understood the Bible, the doctrine of Christ.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, because I do believe a lot of Christians don't understand the doctrine of Christ either.
SPEAKER_02Will you outline the doctrine of Christ for us for our Christian listeners?
SPEAKER_00It's first faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and then repentance, and then baptism, and then the Holy Ghost, which baptism includes being baptized by water, and then Christ will baptize you by fire and the Holy Ghost. Christ does that. And finally, then you are to endure to the end for the rest of your life. You try your best to live the commandments. The commandments are not just ten, the commandments are many, they're untold amounts. A commandment for me may be different than you. I truly believe a commandment is the spirit whispering to us to do something, and if we fail to do it, we're not keeping the commandments. We're not keeping that commandment that Christ had for me. And and so I need to live I need to try to live my life, to hear his spirit, and to follow him. That's the commandments for me. And I think anybody else, yeah, I would you know, I say that to anybody else, um, you need to listen to the spirit as it communicates to you and follow those things. That's what's the most important thing for you to do, is to follow that whispering of the spirit. And and as I woke up, I had the thing I struggled with a lot was I got things in my head that's coming from me. I got things in my head that might be coming from Christ, and things might be coming from the wrong source. Which one do I, how do I listen to them? How do I understand? And it depends on me. I can't blame on a you know, one thing the church has done to people is giving them a crutch. And that they have this crutch, which is the prophet or their bishop, and they say, just as long as I do what they're doing, I'm good. And they fail to learn to exercise how to listen to the spirit. And and that's a big thing that's been changed for me waking up, is that I know now the responsibility is on me to learn to listen to the spirit and follow that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I love that. Would you define the way that you understand it, what the baptism of fire in the Holy Ghost is?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'll say that I don't believe that I've had it, but I believe the baptism of fire is, you know, I've heard people who who claim it, and I'm not gonna discount what they say, uh, but uh I'm very interested in hearing anybody's story who claims that. And for them, it has often been a, I mean, a truly a burning sensation, uh uh definitely a significant impact to their to themselves, that they are not mistaken that something happened to them that uh was significant. And and it was, you know, often a burning situation uh in in their bosom or in their whole body. And um it it changed them. It was a significant event in their life that they continued to remember and hold on to. Um so I I can't claim one for myself, but others. That's what I believe maybe taken place. And then, you know, you go to the Bible or the Book of Mormon and see examples of people who have claimed the baptism of fire. Lehi, he had a pillar of fire come down next to him. And you know, the spirit uh spoke to him. So there's an example. We have the the Lamanites who were trying to kill uh Nephi, and uh and uh they they had a baptism of fire experience right there. Christ refers to that in his talk to the Neph to the Nephites after his resurrection. He's telling them that those people had received the baptism of fire, and they knew it not. It's because, you know, so there's in a case where somebody had received it, didn't have a name for it. You know, they couldn't necessarily explain what it was. They just know something happened to them that was significant that changed their hearts. You know, a true baptism of fire is gonna change your heart. And you were now changed, you're not gonna have that disposition to do evil. You're gonna want more so to do to follow Christ, and it's just gonna change you. Um I like I say, I haven't had the singular impact like that, but I've had tender mercies that have changed me, where my eyes have been open or the veil's been lifted from my eyes, and I see more.
SPEAKER_02I think as we all go throughout our awakening journey and we walk, we try to walk closer to Jesus Christ, we're all going to receive that. We're all going to be able to receive this manifestation of God in our lives that completely changes us. Um and I think it starts with a desire in our heart to know him and to walk like him. And that's when we we receive those things. And so I would encourage everybody to be seeking that, everybody to be walking in his footsteps so that we can receive that.
SPEAKER_00Oh, let me just share this story with you. Yeah. Um the thing that I kind of I wouldn't say struggled with, but I I wonder, maybe is the better word, is um why I'm not really seeing that many people who even claim in the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. And I wonder why. You know, why people are waking up now. Why isn't this just all of a sudden just happening more and more? And I came across the story in the Book of Mormon, King Limhi. He was being taught by, I think it was Ammon. Ammon was an unbelievable missionary. He was, you know, chopping off arms and doing incredible feats that you know showed he definitely had the power of God with him. And he taught King Limhi and his people. And they said they believed him wholeheartedly. And they all said, We want to be baptized. Can you baptize us? And here he tells them, I'm not authorized, I'm not worthy. I'm thinking, he's not? You're kidding me. But he didn't claim authority to baptize at that time. And so what were the people left to do? Well, they didn't they didn't eliminate their testimonies, they didn't lose their testimonies, they waited upon the Lord. They had faith that the Lord would provide at the right time. So that's where I'm at. I don't know that I have had a witness that I know someone who has that authority to baptize and do that for me. Others have, and I don't discount them. But for me, I haven't had that witness of a servant who has that authority. So I'm waiting upon the Lord and trusting in him that that will come, and that until that time, I should have faith in him as much as I can and try to learn how to listen to his spirit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I totally agree. I think one thing that really helped me to gain clarity when I was awakening was realizing that the authority comes from Jesus Christ and He can instill that authority to baptize, to bless, to heal on anyone when that person is ready according to his will. And so when we're just going directly to Jesus Christ, it's so empowering in our lives to be able to receive authority to do as he did. It tells us in the Bible that we will we will end up doing greater things than even he did through his power. And that's what I'm seeking for to be a healer and to be able to witness these miracles that are completely through and under his power and authority. And I think the more that those of us that are waking up, coming out of corrupt systems, we're going to be witnessing these things and seeing these things, but we have to keep walking in his footsteps and believing that we can walk in his footsteps. So I love your thoughts on all that.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. In my book, I talk about authority.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I talk about the priesthood. I have an entirely different vision of what the priesthood is now. Completely changed.
SPEAKER_02Can you tell us a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_00Well, um, the priesthood, the way the church understands it, still is, I think, influenced by the Aaronic priesthood, the Levitical priesthood, which is which has been fulfilled. The Levitical order was, you know, the priest had to act as an intermediary between the people and God. And so you went to a priest to officiate in these sacrifices for you. And they were assigned by the Lord to be the tribe of Levi to do that work. And so it was the male children of Levi, and they were to conduct the sacrifices and do the work in the temple. And there's where an occasion where it was really restricted to a male to do the priestly duties. And but I believe that, you know, prior to the law of Moses, the priesthood was a patriarchal, kind of was coming from family, you know, through the through that line. But not always, you know, Abraham's father wasn't really a righteous man. And so God can ordain anybody he wants to have the priesthood. And what the priest, you know, that was the higher order, the order after the Son of God, all the way up to Moses. We didn't have the Iranic order until Moses came in, and that they had to have this lesser priesthood because the children of Israel didn't want to talk directly to God. They were afraid of God, and they wanted to have a prophet in between them. And so that's when that was instituted. But that's not the ideal. You know, the uh the ideal is the priesthood after the order of Son of God, the Melchizedek priesthood. So when Christ came, he fulfilled that order. He rent the temple and it was done away with. No more would there be a priest between you and God a priest. You now were to try to develop your own relationship directly with God, just as he wanted the children of Israel to do, he wants his disciples to do. And so that's what Christ taught. And and Peter even said to his to the people, you are a royal priesthood. That's everybody. Men, women, black, white, bond, free, everyone. If you look at Alma thirteen, the priesthood is for the purpose of teaching someone the gospel. That's what it's for. And when you read Alma thirteen, it talks about well, who gets the priesthood? It's those who have exercised great faith. Okay, can that be a man or a woman? Of course it can be. And so I truly believe that the you know men and women can hold the priesthood. The priesthood is a gift, and we're all to seek after the good gifts, the gift of healing, the gift of tongues, the gift of teaching, the priesthood. And we're all to seek after that, everyone, men, women. And when I studied the Doctrine and Covenants a bit on section 84, which is all about the priesthood, I learned some interesting things. That the claim of John the Baptist coming and restoring the Iranic priesthood, I don't believe that I don't believe that happened. You know, the story about that came out five years after it took place. Five years. I didn't believe that. I couldn't believe that. That the and they they had the Book of Commandments come out, and that wasn't included in there, and they didn't talk about it. It wasn't until 1834, I think it was, that Oliver Cowdery wrote an article in The Messenger and Advocate about this occasion of John the Baptist coming down. And then they had a date for it, too. And then that Peter, James, and John came down a month later and restored that. And to me, all of that conflicts with what happened at the Morley Farm and the restoration of the high priesthood there. And I just thought, this is really convoluted. I don't think this is good scripture because the way I look at the Doctrine of Covenants now is if it doesn't align itself as a witness to what's in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, then we should question it. We should take it to the Lord and ask if this is a true doctrine or if this is true, and then go from there. Because I do think there is some good things in the Doctrine of Covenants, because they complement the Book of Mormon and the Bible. But there's also some things like the priesthood that don't. The way the priesthood is done in this church is contrary to what's in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I don't I don't support how that's conducted.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I agree. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on that and for giving us a little bit of a sneak peek into some of the things you talk about in your book. So tell us if when somebody opens your book, what are you hoping is going to happen when they open your book? What are you hoping the impact will be from your book?
SPEAKER_00That they'll understand the doctrine of Christ more than anything else, that they understand that they have that responsibility themselves to seek after God and learn how to listen to His Spirit and not rely on another person for that. I don't have any problem in getting together with like-minded people and discussing God, and I love to talk about the gospel. I love getting together with like-minded people and share testimony, and I love hearing these people's story of waking up because to me that's Christ um witnessing to them something that they didn't understand before. And uh that is so uh I just love to do that. I love being around people in in that way. And um, you know, I've held cottage meetings in my home, and uh we've talked often about our waking up process and sharing the gospel and in this new vision. And uh that's what I've tried to do in this book is to show that the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach that same doctrine, the doctrine of Christ. And and to me it's also to help people, you know, address critics who say the Book of Mormon's not true. And and you know, this might help them. Well, what's not true in it? What's what is the primary doctrine of the Book of Mormon that you feel is false? Well, the primary doctrine is the book is the doctrine of Christ, and that's not false. You can't you can't discount the Book of Mormon so much and still believe in the Bible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's so true.
SPEAKER_00You just can't. Um I happen to listen to a podcast that was critical of the Book of Mormon, saying how it's just, you know, not true, it's something made up. And I the thoughts that come into my mind, okay, that's fine. If you don't believe the Book of Mormon, do you believe the Bible and the doctrine of Christ? Is the question I would want to ask that person. Do you believe that? And and if you do, okay, you're good. You don't have to worry about the Book of Mormon then. Don't worry about it. You're good if you believe the doctrine of Christ from the Bible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. Okay, so I'm gonna throw your book up here one more time. So it's called Two Witnesses of One Lord, the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Where can people find your book, John?
SPEAKER_00Amazon.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Type in my name or this title, it'll come up.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. And we will drop a link to your book from Amazon in the description of this episode as well. So thank you, John, for coming and sharing your book with us and sharing your journey with us. How do you find clarity in your life now?
SPEAKER_00Through Christ.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And seeking his word in my life, praying that I can discern his voice among the others. And I feel like that that is happening. And that's what led me to do this. Uh, I'm not a podcaster, I'm not of that generation. And um, but this is what I feel the Lord is helping me to contribute with doing this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you for being willing and for sharing your story. Um, being able to tune in to the voice of Christ over all the others, I think, is one of the best things we can be doing. So thank you so much, John, for joining us on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
