The Condemnation Narrative

Join us for this week's discussion on the faithful narrative of the LDS church, vs. the condemnation narrative.   Is the LDS church truly faithful to God?  Or have we been under condemnation for years?  And if the LDS church as an institution is truly under condemnation from God, then what does that mean for the members?  Is every member of the LDS church under condemnation too?  Is there a way to be active LDS, and faithful to God?  And if so, what are the implications and consequences of attending an intuition the continues to lose light?
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Tune in for the full episode for all these answers on this week's episode of the Clairity Podcast!
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Connect with Brandon:  @gospelmastery  
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Want to share your story of coming out of the LDS church to follow Jesus or discuss a little deeper on a particular gospel topic?  Email us at clairity.podcast@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The church had to abandon Nabu and was driven into the wilderness. The sign of a covenant rupture or curse. We need to remind ourselves about the nature and uh consequences of light and truth. You must be growing, getting closer to God, and improving. If you're not, you are dying spiritually. Godly love is somebody's willingness to suffer for the benefit of another person.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Hey everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of the Clarity Podcast. I'm your host, Claire, and this week's guest is Brandon Hurd. Brandon is from South Jordan, Utah, and he's 38 years old. And Brandon has a little bit of a new narrative, not new, but a new way of looking at things to present to us today. And so we're gonna make this part of a Sunday study because we're gonna do a deep dive. And I'm actually really excited for this deep dive. I've gone over a lot of what his thoughts are on this perspective, and I agree with a lot of them. Everyone has a journey they're walking. And along that road, we are met with potholes, road bumps, rain, storms, and sometimes just fog.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

But through it all, we're really just looking for one thing. Clarity.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

This is a really great opportunity. I appreciate all the work that you guys have done, that you've done before meeting Ashton and that uh the Ashton has helped you do since then. So um this is just an incredible amount of work. I I just I don't know fully what it's taken for you guys to make this happen, but um I know a little bit about what it takes. And so thank you guys for that. And uh thanks to everybody for taking the time to listen to this. You know, you're you're taking your time and you're listening to uh somebody else's perspective on things, and we hope it'll be beneficial today.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

So all right, thank you. Okay, so I want to kind of jump into you're calling this the condemnation narrative. And the reason why I love this conversation is because when I was at the beginning of my awakening journey, a lot of evidence is coming out about things that are lies that we've been taught in the church. So who killed Joseph Smith, the truth about polygamy, all these things that we hear the truth, and then basically the invitation is you figure out what to do with it. And I was like, what do I do with this? And so what I love about this narrative that you have here is that this gives us a little bit of an idea of maybe what we can do with it. So let's go ahead and jump into it, maybe introduce this to us, Brandon.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah, absolutely. Uh thanks, Claire again, for that. So um, this is uh it's a new narrative, just like uh, or new aspects to a uh a partially known narrative. Um, but this we're attempting to navigate some complex ideas in history here. Um, so before we get into the actual content of the narrative and what that means for us, and then what to do about it, um we really need to lay a lot of groundwork to introduce the main content so that it's relatable, applicable, understandable, and beneficial. So also I'm really gonna appreciate your patience. The this is the first time that I've given this presentation to any kind of audience. Um, so I appreciate your patience with that. This is um like how to consider this presentation. This is really a layer one introduction to a lot of really deep concepts. And it really, this is like a minefield. Uh for anybody that studied church history and getting getting into anything that's even closely controversial, uh, you can really understand very quickly how how many different opinions there are about even the littlest of things. So um so this is a layer one introduction. Also, this this topic right here is honestly not the most important thing, but it is necessary to get to the most important things. Um, just briefly, what I'd say the most important things are are a correct understanding of what it means to have faith in Jesus Christ, also a more accurate understanding of the standards that the Lord expects of expects of us from our repentance and uh becoming born again and living in his name, continuing in the path to receive everything that he has to give to us. So to continue on, we're going to uh first um just discuss some common experiences that meant that so many of us are having, um, and then really what's in it for you, understanding these uh these uh possible alternative perspectives uh in the presentation. But also we need to lay some groundwork with uh what are the boundaries, what's the scope of this work or this project um and what it is and what it's not.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

All right, so let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

First of all, what is it?

unknown 5:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Well, okay, so um most of us come from an LDS background. You know, everybody that's listening to the podcast, um, a lot have distanced themselves. Uh, many are still involved in what is considered regular activity. Many still sincerely believe or desire to believe in the restoration. However, many sincere believers and former members of the LDS church experience growing tension between what the church claims to be and what they observe it is. This is all founded in the traditional narrative of the church. And, you know, again, we're we're laying some groundwork here to present this alternative condemnation narrative that we can consider. But for example, discrepancies in leadership behavior, institutional priorities, spiritual outcomes, cultural and social conflict, um, even further, such as, but certainly not limited to a big one. Why would the prophet or leaders of the church support the COVID-19 vaccinations? Why do we have no new major revelations for so long, like almost a couple hundred years? Um, suppression of alternative thoughts and ideas of uh polygamy narratives, um, that's different from the mainstream uh the church. So, and um so many others. Um, but I'm I'm curious, Claire, uh, from your per from your guys' perspectives, uh, beyond that, are there any choice issues that uh that I haven't mentioned?

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Yeah, and I actually wanted to bring this up. So we just did our Sodom and Gomorrah episode, and one of the biggest um criticisms we got from that episode was that one of the biggest things that is the sin of Sodom is not taking care of the poor and the needy. And so, you know, if we're claiming that the sit of the sin of Sodom is existing within the church and within society today, we should talk about that. And so that's a big one that the poor and the needy are not being taken care of. And as someone who's chronically ill, absolutely we're not being taken care of in the church. Um, there's also we should talk about how the dating pool is an absolute sewage and young people are not getting married anymore. We're seeing that. We're seeing the moral decline and just the membership in general and all the young men that are struggling with pornography, and we're not addressing that in the church. So there's all these things that should be the fruits. If this is the Lord's true church, there should be good fruits there, and we're not seeing those good fruits. So those were some of the things that came to my mind when I was thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Yeah, I mean, I think that those are are perfect examples of contradictions that it's like, why do these things exist? Um, so anyway, this is not an exhaustive list by any means, but these are are really big questions.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

So, and I think kind of just to put it in layman's terms, what you're describing here is kind of the the pneumo title or the nuanced Mormon title, which is those of us who have been in the LDS church but have all these questions because we're seeing these discrepancies and we're starting to peel away all the lies step by step. So that's kind of what you're describing here, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think so. That's an excellent way to put it. So, with all of these issues, many wonder um if the LDS truth claims are still somehow true, despite the contradictions, um, because of the profound benefit the restoration ideas have had on their lives. Is it all true despite these issues? Is it all false? Partly true, partly false? How shall I know what is true? What do I do if any of these options are true? Should I stay? Should I go? What will happen? Um, so you know, you guys talk a lot to people who are going through a lot of these things. So I'm I'm curious, does this sound accurate? Are there are you guys seeing any uh any of people's experiences beyond what we're describing already?

SPEAKER_02 8:45

I mean, it's a large scope. I mean, people are everywhere from awakening to some things and staying in the church to completely awake, throwing out everything, including Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Um, and then I mean there's a whole nother scope of people that are throwing out God too. So it's such a big scope, and I think that that describes it pretty well. And now we're all sitting here wondering, okay, we know this information, we're learning this information, what do we do with it? And what does that mean for us if we do choose to leave the church, but we still love the Lord and we love the Book of Mormon, and we believe that Joseph Smith was a true servant of God. And so that leads me to my next question for you, which is can you define the word restoration? You use the term restoration ideas a lot here. So sure. Um, there's a lot of people that listen to the podcast that have no Mormon background. So define what restoration ideas are.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yeah. So the restoration ideas that were being referenced uh are mainly um the resources that came from uh what we believe uh came from when the Lord worked with Joseph Smith to restore a more accurate, uh, more pure version of what he wants us to understand in his gospel. Um so incredible fruits like uh New Scripture, the Book of Mormon. Um I personally I I still love pretty much all of the Doctrine and Covenants. You know, that's kind of a mixed bag though. Um, but the Pearl of Great Price, those fruits that come from the restoration, most of the stuff that came from Joseph Smith, I I consider uh to be um worthy of great um consideration. It's not often that I find something that's from Joseph that I'm just like, ugh, I don't know about that. So that's what I consider to be um the restoration when I'm referencing that is uh what basically what Joseph gave us.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

And that would lead us into getting into what did Joseph give us versus what did Brigham Young give us. Because I think the standard person within the restoration movement, they're thinking, you know, temple ordinances, priesthood restoration, the Book of Mormon, all those things. And so as we're kind of going out of the church, we start to consider what actually came from Joseph and what actually came from Brigham. And so we can kind of get into that more too.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Um, so okay, so with all this said, um, is it possible to maintain confidence in the things that came from Joseph Smith while being in the church, being out of the church? Like, what's next for those of us trying to navigate this space?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Exactly. So uh my answer to that is yes, I think that it is very possible. It's absolutely reasonable to maintain great faith and confidence in the greatest treasures of the restoration. Um, so what we're gonna be discussing today is how to resolve the contradictions of the modern LDS church without abandoning the treasures of the restoration. So uh for myself at least, um, I've discovered that the traditional narrative of the church uh and the authority claims uh leave so much unanswered. Uh, however, there is one central idea that we've kind of mentioned uh so far that is so big and so foundational that if it's true, uh then it answers the contradictions of modern Mormonism, but specifically that come from the LDS Church. I'm really confident that knowing this will empower you and all of us significantly on the path to become what the restoration really was intended for. And for a long time I didn't understand. And I think that so much of so many of us did not quite understand what the modern LDS Church is not fulfilling Zion. So my goal uh here is to leave uh to leave all of us and leave you as the audiences listening, uh, first and foremost, with the uh with greater uh ideas to become more like Jesus by empowering better decisions about uh your relationship to the present LDS church, how to enter and remain in the Lord's favor and live your life as the Lord would if he was living your life in your place. Uh beyond that, uh provide a stronger argument for difficult decisions and conversations regarding the church, and additionally to combat precepts of men, false traditions, and the stumbling blocks of unbelief. Guys that for that?

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Yeah, okay. Give us a little groundwork, Brandon. So, what gives you the know-how or the knowledge to speak on this topic? Give us a little bit of your background.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Okay, yeah. So at this point in the conversation, you might be wondering exactly the question that Claire.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Who is this guy?

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Who's this uh shaggy haired uh redhead uh dude, um flannel shirt guy? So um I was born in the church. Um I was baptized at eight, both sides of my family, um, have been part of the the mainstream LDS church, um, considered the Brighamite Church, the Utah LDS Church uh for generations, been part of uh been part of um that experience. Um for me, I've always just a little bit about my character. Um I've always had a desire to do good. I've always had a desire to stand up for the truth. Um when I was growing up, I didn't always know how to do that, um, but uh and know how to have the courage to do that. Um, and it was really hard on myself when I didn't because I wanted to live up to those standards and to please the Lord. I've always believed in God. I've never not been able to believe in God, even when my beliefs in God were challenged. Um, I've just always uh had a belief that God was real. Um, I've even been zealous at times, uh, you know, with uh with uh those kinds of feelings inside. Sometimes it just uh didn't always go quite as well as I uh would have hoped um in challenging the status quo. Um but just other things, and I'm gonna try to keep this short. You know, I was so excited to go to seminary, so excited to go on a mission. There was never any question for me, always wanted to go um and do those things and experience those things. So um I did. I served two years in the uh Canada, Edmonton, Alberta mission. And uh uh just a funny thing that somebody said about describing their missionary experience that I don't feel quite all this way, but I thought it was funny, and it does describe a lot. Um they said, describing their mission, that they wouldn't sell their mission for anything, but they wouldn't buy it back for a dime.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

That sounds pretty accurate.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yeah. Um so it was the mission was really hard. Um, but honestly, I would pay a lot. I'd I would pay a lot to be able to do uh some things over again with a much more accurate and helpful understanding that I have now. You'll be able to make a much bigger difference. So anyway, continuing on, um now the more immediate part of my story that's relating to the topic at hand um is uh COVID was a big turning point, um, a really big turning point. I'm gonna get to that in just a second. But just before COVID, you know, after my mission, I was discouraged a number of times from seeking more understanding and challenging the status quo when I saw something better or I had questions that I wanted uh answered to what I thought would lead me to something better. So I was really getting uh disappointed um with some of the things that I was experiencing. Like, why do we so rarely discuss anything of substance beyond primary answers? Why not uh move past milk and move into meat? Like uh um revelation, uh such a strong connection with the Lord that we have revelation for our own lives um consistently and strongly. Uh why do we have such few uh spiritual experiences? The same things regurgitated over and over in our local congregations and even churchwide. Um, those are things that really uh just got to be to a place where they were um uh really disappointing and discouraging. So um that was a general sentiment that I was coming from, especially after my omission. And I found ways to reconcile this, but um it, you know, they it wasn't it wasn't really uh a place of reconciliation to satisfy it entirely, but just to like put it off, which is I think unfortunate. But then um COVID came around, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Which was the breaking point for many people. Like, I think we all had those of us waking up, we had questions in the beginning, but we just stuffed it somewhere, and or I was just like, Well, this is just a problem with the membership, and it's fine. Yeah, and then COVID was like, No, there's something wrong. There is something so wrong.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Something a little deeper, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:24

So, what was your experience with COVID?

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah, so COVID, um, things just became I mean, just like you were saying, Claire, the thing, the problems that existed, uh, they either got revealed to be how like how bad they really were, or the problems that were not as bad became accentuated and magnified.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

And uh, and I definitely experienced that as well. Uh, it became increasingly frustrating for me to try to rationally defend the fruitlessness of the institution, um, local congregations, etc., especially the conflict uh and behaviors of members and uh the directives and also silence of church leaders uh just became increasingly like I didn't this does not seem to drive very well. Literally, um I I was uh I had immediate family members tell me that I was following Satan because I was not following the leaders in getting the uh yeah, the uh squishy squishy jab jab.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

It's okay, you can say it now, they don't censor us anymore.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Oh, really?

unknown 18:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

That's good to know. That's good to know.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

And I think that's a common experience, and it's very interesting that the people that were told that we were apostates just for saying we're not getting the shot, like we weren't even investigating the fallibility of prophets yet. Like, was that your experience? Exactly. Yeah, it was just the shot and just the mask issue that all of a sudden we were apostates, and that's when I was like, what is going on? I have been the most dedicated Molly Mormon girl, and now you think I'm an apostate. Like, it was very strange, yeah, very strange behavior from people.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Painful.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Oh, yeah, painful. I mean, people that we knew like my whole life, like I grew up with these adults that like were my leaders and things, and that I thought were my friends, that all of a sudden it's like, oh, I'm an apostate now. Like it was hurtful, it was way hurtful.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yeah, again, some of those immediate family members, um, it was the source of my pain, but I think I was really lucky. Uh, like, you know, it sounds like from what you're just describing that there were even more people beyond people like closer relationships, like even into the the broader church congregations and stuff. And it's just yeah, like, yeah, um, extremely painful and uh confusing. So, yeah, just like you were saying, Claire, I wasn't even questioning like the authority claims or narrative of the church at this point. I was just trying to find ways to justify still their behavior. I wasn't trying to justify members' behavior, but I was attempting to justify the leaders' behavior. Um, because you know, leaders of the church, uh, well, president of the church, leader of the church can't lead us astray, uh, that type of ideas.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Because it's like a continual breakdown. Like I remember saying to my mom, like, okay, like I know we're not going to church, but we're always gonna pay tithing, right? We're always gonna pay tithing, right? And then like two weeks later, we're like, we're not paying tithing anymore. And then I was like, Okay, but we're always gonna wear our garments, right? We're always gonna wear our garments, right? A month later, we're like, we're not wearing the garments anymore. It's like this continual breakdown. And it causes, I really, and this is this is a little bit of a tangent, but the broken heart and the contrite spirit, I believe that you need to have a literal breaking in your spirit, like something painful that happens to you. And I think a lot of us experience that because when you've been lied to, you've been betrayed. Like you're totally feeling like the hurt of betrayal from an institution, which is kind of funny sounding, but that is what we were experiencing.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So I mean, I mean, it's like layer by layer.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

And you know, that's the really interesting thing that happens, and we're gonna discuss this more, but uh when greater light and truth or awareness of how things really are starts to be presented to us, um, truth divides.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yeah. So and when you see the truth, you can't unsee it. That's one thing with family. Like we love our families, but we cannot unsee it once we see what is happening. And I can't deny it because you're accountable for what you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

So absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, we're we're gonna dive into those concepts much be much deeper here. So so as I was trying to navigate this, I was introduced to new understandings. This is kind of a beginning, uh, you know, new understandings of things that I'd been aware of for a long time, um, especially scriptural patterns that true believers are basically always persecuted by religious institutions, especially if they're more matured institutions that have been around for a while. Um, not just, but this was the idea that started. I don't know why I didn't consider it. Not just the body of members um were doing the persecuting against the true believers um that are part of the same body, but it was also the leadership that were persecuting um true believers. And I started to be introduced to though to the evidence. Evidence that's provided in the scriptures and also in uh you know the modern uh restoration times as well. And uh so I started to thinking how things really are maybe different than how I believed that they are. I wanted peace, I wanted better answers, I was looking for the substance, I was looking for the resolution and the keys to unlock the puzzle. And then about 2021, about there, I was reading a book and I was introduced, um, it was introduced to me, an alternative narrative to the church, uh, to church history. So this alternative narrative started to answer all of my foundational questions in ways that I wasn't expecting, as uncomfortable sometimes or different uh as they were uh at times. So I started to think, have new ideas that maybe the standards I believed that I needed to defend were an illusion. Maybe I don't need to defend the traditional authority narrative as I understood it, and maybe you have done the same. Maybe you're still doing the same. So I I wondered, you know, if I don't need to defend that, what else don't I need to defend? So uh, you know, I am curious. Are you guys seeing this? Is this pretty accurate? Or are you seeing anything uh even beyond what we're describing here?

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Definitely, and I think there is a pull because you've been raised in this environment culturally to defend the things. I remember defending garments shortly after to a Christian friend. I had already taken my garments off.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Like really, really weird.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Like, I don't even know, but I still just felt like this thing of like I am doing something wrong if I don't defend like why I even did this in the first place, even though I wasn't wearing them anymore. And so that's very common and it's a human experience. So, like, as we're going through this, guys, like it's a human experience. And I think God gives us so much grace as we're going through this process.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

So, what's the big idea here, Brandon?

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yes, so here is the big idea. The two main historical narratives that are available for us, really, again, the main ones, are regarding the past and present LDS church are number one, the faithful narrative, and number two, an alternative narrative. The faithful narrative um tells a story of success, or at least a story that is less severe. The alternative narrative tells a story of failure. And what can we call the alternative narrative? We already uh defined it a little bit. The condemnation narrative, the continual loss of light that explains the contradictions of modern Mormonism. Um, I found that the condemnation narrative connects the dots better than anything else to resolve the contradictions of the modern LDS church. So uh here's where it gets pretty real when considering this condemnation narrative. If the concepts regarding the condemnation narrative are closer to how things really are, the implications are severe for the institution and for us as individuals. We will show that, if true, the implications put especially the modern LDS church in a severely unfavorable position regarding divine favor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

So are you saying that you believe that the church is under condemnation right now?

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

So does that mean that the members of the church are under condemnation?

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Okay. Do you believe it's all the members?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

No.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Okay. All right, so let's get into that. So, so what is what does this all mean? The condemnation, what does it mean to be condemned? Let's get into all of this.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

So there's some really important ideas that we need to uh this are kind of the last little foundational piece to set our boundaries of what we're gonna be talking about and what we're not gonna be talking about before we get into the main content to understand the condemnation. Um, it is important to understand that this is not the first time that anyone else has pointed out the condemnation and its implications. And we're gonna get into that. And you'll probably be like, oh yeah, I've heard of that. I've heard that before. I understand some of this, some of this stuff, or maybe even uh a lot of it. Uh the parts of this conversation, um, that this work, this project that we're bringing to you here is seeking the what it's seeking to improve on are the following. Number one, a stronger push to bring this critically foundational information, if it's true, to the consciousness of the members of the LDS church as essential to their identity. And that includes people who are still active in the church and people who are consider them foreign members or whatever, uh, especially people that believe in the restoration as a blanket, uh kind of a blanket general uh consideration. This is so important that I I honestly consider this to be like the third or fourth most important thing that should be discussed about the gospel. Um, perhaps even uh when appropriate, in even broader Christian circles. Um but uh uh yes, even if you've left the church, absolutely. So faith in Christ, like God is real, uh Jesus is real, um, he is our savior, we have need of salvation, uh, we we need him. Um he came and and atoned for our sins. And uh, but then um there was a falling away, significant enough that uh that a truth need to be restored, and that happened with the restoration. Oh, and guess what? That church uh basically failed and was placed under condemnation. Um, so that's really important. Like uh even if the LDS church would teach something like that, it'd be like, wow, we're under condemnation. Um, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 27:28

And what do we do about it?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

What do we do about it? Like maybe this is kind of important.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

It would it would put a push on the members to like step it up instead of doing, I think one of the biggest, I don't know if it's a curse or what it is, but the apathy and complacency in the church is a struggle amongst the members, where it's like you said, if we taught this, it'd be like, we need to raise the bar, we need to step it up, we need to be more dedicated to following God. And what does that mean? And what does that look like? I remember teaching Sunday school and asking the question all the time, what does this look like, guys? What does this look like? And I would just get like the blank stare. Like, they don't know what it looks like. And I even had a leader raise his hand once, and he was like, We don't actually know what that looks like all the time, Claire. And I was like, dude, you're you're like a second counselor in the bishop. Like, what are you doing? What do you mean you don't know what it looks like? It's in our scriptures, and so this would change the whole church if they started talking about this, but that would require us to be stripped of our pride if we were gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

So I think you're exactly right. Exactly right. That's one big thing that this uh that this effort is attempting to do. Um, a second big thing is a stronger theological understanding of the fundamental principles of cause and effect or divine law, so to speak, in context of individual and institutional condemnation uh over especially long periods of time. Uh, because you can see the effects of things uh over a long period of time versus just if if something is happening immediately. And then the very last thing is to uh is to add clear and robust data trends to reinforce the claims of the condemnation. So that's the unique part of this uh this work that we're attempting to bring here. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Totally. Great. Now this is important. What this is not. Um this is gonna be some hot button topics that we're gonna touch on here that people have really, really strong feelings about. It's really important to understand that this work is not about validating or invalidating any of the following polygamy, conspiracy against Joseph Smith, Brigham Young as the main bad guy boogeyman, abuse allegations, and even things beyond this. Even if those are true or false, they are downstream symptoms of the upstream corruption source. Or at least that's what I'm suggesting.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

So you're getting down to root cause here. These are symptoms. I don't know if you've ever been sick, you know what this means. There's symptoms and there's root cause, and if you don't address the root cause, you're never gonna heal the symptoms, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

100%.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

How are we gonna cover all this?

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Okay, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

We're done laying the groundwork now. Let's actually talk about what we're gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

30 minutes later. Yep, I know it.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

I know it. Appreciate everybody's patience, but it was really important. First, we got to we've got to dive into three things to understand the condemnation narrative and its real implications. Number one, we got to visit history, uh, especially times of the restoration when Joseph was alive and immediately after he was killed. Then we have to visit uh another understanding or a better understanding of the theology behind condemnation. Uh it's really the theology of light and truth. And then we're gonna take a look at both of those in the effects of uh of those events and put them into data trends and see where the data point us. Um is it a faithful traditional narrative, or is it a condemnation narrative? Uh let's begin. The uh the history portion. In 1832, DNC 84 was given and the church was declared under condemnation. Just a little snippet from DNC 84. Uh, and this condemnation shall remain until they repent and remember the new covenant, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written. So the church was uh placed under condemnation. There's different opinions about how many and when the entire church was under condemnation, but the point is that pretty much everyone can agree with, whether they like it or not, is the church was placed under condemnation. And it was in the early to mid 1830s. Then, 10 years later, after um already severe consequences by uh losing Kirtland um and also uh Jackson County, uh terrible experiences uh in both of those places, in 1842, the Lord confirms in uh Doctrine Covenants 124 that the church um had failed to repent of those of those things uh that caused the condemnation, but he would give them a second chance if they would build the Navu temple and repent in a certain time. This is the critical fork in the road, Doctrine Covenants 124. Did the saints successfully complete the Lord's charge to repent and additionally build the Nauvoo temple on time? The faithful saint the faithful narrative says yes. The alternative condemnation narrative says what do you think, Claire?

SPEAKER_01 32:34

No, no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

So the faithful narrative says that we passed the test of building the Navu temple on time, yet the church, um, some interesting just quick facts here, the church had to abandon Nau and was driven into the wilderness. A sign, as you were kind of touching on a little bit ago, a sign of a covenant rupture or curse. So beyond this, the church to our present day has never received a lifting of the condemnation in any official declaration or revelation by church leadership. Already, this seems to be a strange and uh honestly untenable contradiction for the faithful narrative to be true, at least as it is implied. Um, so here's just quick interesting thing. We don't have to spend a whole lot of time on this, but there are only three people that I've ever been able to find that have addressed the condemnation in church leadership with any like unique um uh of their own thoughts, so to speak. Any ideas?

SPEAKER_02 33:35

So, what is what have they said about it? I'm just curious, like what have they said? I've never I don't recall ever being mentioned that the church is under condemnation in conference or anything, but I'm younger than you, so can you get into this a little bit for us?

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Yeah, so the three people are President Ezra Taft Benson, talked about it and made a very clear declaration that we were still under condemnation when he was the president of the church.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

The other two accurate for Benson, yes, yes, Benson.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Ah man, I love him, but also some mixed bag stuff there.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

That's how I feel with like all of them. It makes me sad. So yep, we won't get into that here.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

That's that's a conversation all on its own. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

So Benson um was the was the main one and did the best job um by by far. The other two, very interesting. Russell Nelson and Dallin Oaks.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

So what did they say about it? Because that seems very opposite from the church's general standpoint of this is the best generation, which every generation is the best generation in the church.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yeah, oh, absolutely. The best generation, all is well in Zion. Uh, I mean, you know, just everything is everything is good. We've got the truth, you know, it's an ongoing restoration, blah, blah, blah. You know. Um, so Nelson, so here's the here's the funny part. They both, I mean, it's like Nelson probably gave a few sentences, and Oaks probably gave like a paragraph.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

That's it. That's it. Benson gave a whole talk basically about it. And most, so these are not the only three that have ever referenced it, but uh again, according to the research that I've done, I've only the the other people beyond these three that have ever brought it up is all just referencing President Benson.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Okay, yeah, they never shared any unique perspective, they never tried to explore it, they never uh attempted to answer, like, oh, what's this about? Like, we're still in a combination, like, oh, that doesn't sound very good.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

So um Nelson uh also kind of referenced, he also referenced an experience with Benson, but it wasn't in reference to Benson's talks that he gave. Uh he Nelson basically gave an experience when I think that he I I I could be remembering this not entirely right, so correct me if I need. Um, but uh Nelson said that he was in the temple one time and President Benson sat him down and he's like, hey, we're still under condemnation. And and then uh uh Elder Nelson at the time, he's like, ooh, that really uh that really made me concerned. That's it. Moving on.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

That was helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Yeah. Um, and then Oaks, um, the only time that I've ever again ever found that uh that that uh Dallin Oaks has uh addressed this was at a BYU devotional. And he basically said, um, and I think that he still referenced President Benson because I think it was around that time, but he gave some of his own unique thoughts, like his his opinion on it at least. Um it's not very good, but you know, it's he at least did something. Um so he basically said, uh, the reason I think that we're not uh that we're still under condemnation is just as the Lord stated in in DNC 84, we haven't taken the Book of Mormon seriously, we haven't read it enough, we haven't, we haven't shared it enough, we haven't done enough missionary work, you know, we don't we haven't believed in Jesus enough. And that's it.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

But what does that mean? Like, dude, what does it mean to believe in Jesus? Like how, like uh we're gonna talk about all these other problems and stuff, but what does it really mean to believe in Jesus? What does it mean to repent of your sins and actually experience the fruits of the gospel as the Lord defined?

SPEAKER_02 37:07

It goes back to that question, what does it look like? How do we experience this in our daily lives? So just to go backwards just a little bit. So if the church was placed under condemnation in 1832, do you know why we were placed under condemnation in 1832?

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Yeah, um, so again, this is a bit of a complex thing. So I'm gonna try to just touch on it briefly. Again, this is a whole nother conversation. This is like, you know, I mentioned at the beginning, this is like layer one, right? But this would be this would be a great thing for like layer two or beyond. Okay. Okay, so just so just briefly to kind of wet the whistle, so to speak. The condemnation really started with the events that were happening in Jackson County. That's where it started. And I don't know if you could exactly say this, but I think this this is just an impression that I get that it was kind of a cascading effect that um stuff was not going well there, and they didn't they didn't pass the test there, they didn't turn things around there, even after all the warnings that Joseph gave them or that the Lord gave them through Joseph, says, Hey, you guys, you've got to turn things around, or bad things are coming your way.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

So bad things did come their way. But they weren't repenting of polygamy, or like what was the main thing here?

SPEAKER_00 38:16

This this was way early on, so polygamy really wasn't even in the picture at this point. So the things that they were doing, as far as I understand, um, and my understanding also is that the records are a little bit sparse on this, but there's enough to to kind of glean some conclusions out of this. Um, they were caring more about the things of the world, they're caring more about uh getting nice properties here, nice, nice this, that, there. Um, they were fighting with their neighbors. There was you know disagreements um and uh you know conflict among themselves on what to do with resources and interesting uh and things. So, you know, human nature for all of history.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Yes, and the same conflicts that we see in society and in the church today, which is caring more about stuff than people and arguing. I'm sure there was lots of gossip and slandering and all the just the basic issues that we see communities struggling with today.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

So well, and it's important to understand that the people that were being called to Jackson County, and this is like where Temple Recommend, it's it's like the first pseudo temple recommend. Interesting. You had to be recommended to go to Jackson County.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

You you weren't supposed to just go, but I think that's another kind of part of the problem. Um, is that some people actually just went without being like recommended to go. So it's uh it's a variety of different things that uh that started to cascade.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Interesting. Okay, so there's the brief sprinkling of the history. Okay, so let's get into the theology.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Okay, the theology of light and truth as the revealing mechanism. Principle number one. So we're gonna cover three principles. Um, and again, this is all to reveal and understand what is condemnation and why is it a really dangerous thing to be in. Um, okay, so principle number one, the nature of light and truth. We must clearly understand the fundamentals of light and truth to understand the implications of the condemnation. Uh, this is because condemnation, uh, spiritually speaking, is a state that results from rejecting light and truth through sin. That's how it happens. It's the state that we find ourselves in through the conscious act of sin. So, what is condemnation actually? That's the state that we get in, but what but what is it? I'm curious, Claire, what do you think of when you hear the words like condemn, condemned, or condemnation?

SPEAKER_02 40:47

First thing that came to mind actually was like in court, and the judge like hits their mouth and is like that's my first thing. But uh second thing, it you're I would think of a condemned building, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's that's the first thing that that's really come to my mind when thinking of those words. So let's explore the condemnation that I think that can really reveal a lot about how that applies to us with things that are invisible, with something that is, you know, outside of us and visible and tangible. So, what does a building have to be like to be cleared condemned?

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Well, it's usually a building that's falling apart and it's no longer safe and it's usually empty, which was something that sparked an idea in my brain because when you study about spiritual warfare, you learn that one of the ways that we fight against the enemy is by filling the house, right? Usually that's referred to our spirits, our bodies, our hearts, filling it with good things instead of bad things. So if your house is empty, what are you getting from that, right? So take that into the institution to the church. If we are empty of the fruits of the spirit, that's not good for us.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Oh, absolutely. So I wasn't planning on going in that in that direction, but but that's like that's like really powerful and it's it's totally true. Like it the whole concept of nature abhors a vacuum. I mean, it absolutely applies with us uh with light and truth spiritually.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Well, and you find a lot of stories in the Bible of these men that were men of God that they fell eventually. And so you have to ask yourself, why did they fall?

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

And you find as you really study these scriptures, because they usually started with they found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time, choosing to do the wrong thing. You that's usually what happened. And so that's where do not be an empty vessel. Like that is where we need to make sure. I mean, wake up in the morning, be like, Lord, what do you need me to do today? What do you need me to know today? And that's how we fill the house and how we fill the vessel. And especially in this place where we're trying to wake up to lies, the spiritual warfare is so strong. It is so strong. And so you have to be connected to God to fight against it and to be willing to engage in the warfare because that's what it is. Don't be the empty house because you're gonna find the darkness filling that empty house if you're not filling it with light.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Absolutely. I think just piggybacking off what you're saying is I mean, it's so important to understand. We're gonna this as we continue moving forward, it's gonna reveal more about this and illustrate this, but the slightest deviation from what we know to be the highest and best good, in other words, our conscience, it opens the door. Yeah, it opens the door for bad things.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

Yeah, okay, and I want to point out too, because everybody's gonna be like, nobody's perfect though. We all sin. Sin is sin. Yes, okay. All of that is true. I know we're not perfect, I know we all sin, but that's where the principle of repentance comes in so strong, and that if we don't recognize our need for Jesus Christ, we're not going to be able to overcome overcome the things we need to to no longer be under condemnation.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Yes. I used to feel that way so clearly. Um, I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but I'm gonna throw a challenge out there to some of those ideas. That we all sin. I'm gonna suggest that there are people on the earth today, and there will be more that do not sin.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

I actually agree with that. And actually, there is a verse, I can't even remember what book of the Bible it is now, but Paul is talking about how we should be continuing onward to perfection, and he's talking about I haven't reached this place yet, but we should be continuing onward to perfection. And can we achieve perfection in this life? I think we can.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

We can. I believe it. So that's a whole nother conversation for another time, but it is critical. It is critical to this. Totally. It's a choice. Um so uh can I continue on with the uh just briefly finishing that analogy there of uh of like a condemned building? So uh a condemned building is something that's unsafe. Um it it's like it's something that is no longer able to serve its purpose that it was made for. Um now, does a condemned building ever get better on its own?

SPEAKER_02 45:16

No.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

No, it can't.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

It usually just gets wrecked.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Yeah, exactly. So what it what happens exactly like you were just saying, what eventually happens to every condemned structure, no matter how it is, it's destroyed.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

I also want to point out, too, this is another point. If you're thinking about a building, how much time does it take for a building to be under condemnation? Like a long time, like before it falls apart. I mean, unless a tornado hits it, okay, like then it's gonna take a lot of time for it to get to the point where don't go in, it's unsafe, it's gonna fall apart. And so we see that in the church through all these years. I talk to older people about this all the time. They're like, the church was different in my day because it was, and now we're seeing we're seeing the young people come home from their missions in a worse state off than they were when they left. That's a problem.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

So that's just a point that I thought of.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Oh, yeah. No, uh, I mean, wow, I I think this is the first time I've ever said anything like this, but uh, I feel like I'm old enough to be able to validate. This was different, like back in the early 2000s or whatever. The church was different. Um, back in my day.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

We talk about this all the time. Me and my husband, we're seven years apart. He's seven years younger. When he describes his experiences in the church, I'm like, what? Like the things that he was exposed to as far as like violence and sexuality and all these things, I was never exposed to. That's just a seven-year difference, guys. Like strange. That's crazy. But it's going down fast.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Yeah, and we're we're reinforcing the ideas of where we're going with this. So, anyway, um, a couple scriptures, we'll just uh do these really quick. DNC 82, verse 3 He who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation. John 3 19, and this is the condemnation uh that the light has come into the world, and men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. When we sin even one time, we are scheduled for destruction. That's the bottom line.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

That was a really bold statement, Brandon. So a lot of people are gonna be like, that's not true, we all sin. But this goes back to again the need for repentance and aiming for that perfection in Christ, not through ourselves, through Christ.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Absolutely. We cannot do it without Christ. But again, um, that's probably gonna ruffle a lot of feathers, just like you said. Oh, yeah. But uh worth uh a lot deeper discussion at another time. So for now, let's continue on. Um, light and truth are not static. Continuing on the sub-principle to the first one. Um, light and truth are not static. You're either gaining or losing light, growth or decline, getting closer or further from God. We can never be neutral. Which direction does a car idle? Always downhill. Uh the scriptures describe this pattern repeatedly. Um, in a number of scriptures, maybe we'll uh put that up in the post-recording and stuff resources. Um, but can just continue on. Condemnation in this sense isn't simply God is disappointed. Um, it's a real spiritual condition with downstream effects. For example, um, a consideration of uh uh describing or illustrating the pattern. Minds are darkened when we sin. We lose light and truth when we sin. People are left then to their own understanding. So we create precepts of men to try to solve the problems and the challenges and the chaos of life. Then we create false traditions based on those precepts, and we enter spiritual pacification, leading to more sin and further darkening of our spirits. A truly righteous people growing in the favor, growing in favor with God, will be experiencing progressively greater spiritual manifestations. Zion is the standard, and that is a high bar. If you have ever studied any uh any people that have ever achieved Zion, as we believe in the scriptures, as they describe. Condemnation produces the opposite. Babylon. When a people or institution loses light, certain patterns reliably appear. Fewer spiritual manifestations, not more, trusting in lesser things for greater results, such as authority claims that are detached from demonstrations of spiritual power, reliance on titles, structures, and correlation rather than revelation. Uh additional points, preservation of power structures over spiritual transformation, perpetuating false traditions because correction would threaten stability, seeking for comfort, pacification rather than the pain of growth that truth requires and demands. Let leaders tell us what to do, uh, what to believe and do, do very little of our own, compared, importantly, to our real potential. So, through this view, strange or troubling institutional behavior behavior is not surprising, but it is inevitable.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

And we see all of those things in the church right now. Like we can deny it all we want, but you're just choosing to turn a blind eye. Like we're seeing all of that. And that was my biggest thing when I was first waking up is why is it that we claim to be the true church, but there are all these massive problems with sin, like really disgusting sin that I don't want any part of. So I think this is a valid claim here.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Yes. Well, I think so too. And uh just to expand on a little bit, it's more than just the LDS Church.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Oh, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

We see it everywhere in just about every major institution in the world, religious, secular, it doesn't matter. The pattern of the end times is that greater truth is going to be revealed, and we see that. It's so uncanny. Things that have not been touched on or discussed or even looked at for decades, things are starting to like uh things are starting to surface, things are starting to be talked about. Um, even though there's a lot of frustration with it at the same time, you know, we could talk about a number of things, but the pattern is very real and it's becoming more and more clear.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Yeah. This is the information overload at this point in history. And like you said, there's good and bad that comes with that, but there's a lot being revealed right now, and I don't think now is the time to ignore it all.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Yeah. It's hard to keep up.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

No kidding.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

It's uh can be pretty exhausting.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Principle number two under um the ideas of light and truth. This is absolutely critical. Uh, the kingdom of God as a meritocracy. God is no respecter of persons. At least that's what the scriptures declare. So any blessing, including authority or power, is based on obedience to eternal laws of cause and effect. Divine power and authority are inseparable from personal righteousness. Power is granted in proportion to one's likeness to God. God does not give his power arbitrarily or capriciously. God gives his power when people do the things that he asks them to do, which will always make them more like him.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Okay, so I want to um be the devil's advocate for a second here, because I know another criticism that people are going to throw at you, which is okay, now you're using the word righteousness, so but you can't be self-righteous, right? So, so if we're talking about righteousness, what's the difference between righteousness and self-righteousness? You just think you're better than everyone else. Have you heard these arguments?

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Yeah, I think I mean they're very common arguments, especially I I mean, even in greater Christianity. Oh, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:59

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

So, I mean, self-righteousness or righteousness from following God's commandments? Are we not righteous when we do what God asks us to do? And when we do what God asks us to do, do we not become more like him? Does he ever lead us into anything that is not for our greatest and highest benefit? And what is the greatest and highest benefit? What embodies the greatest, highest benefit that we can possibly seek to um receive, obtain, achieve, whatever you want to call it? It's him.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

To be like him, yeah, which is be therefore perfect even as I am.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

And this is life eternal, that they may know me, Jesus Christ, God and Jesus Christ, whom God has sent. That is eternal life.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

We're undoing the self-righteous claim because the righteousness comes through Jesus Christ. We can't do it without his power. We have to have his power. It doesn't come of just ourselves. But because I love Jesus, the natural outpouring is going to be to turn from sin, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:05

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So um, I would really love to uh do a whole nother conversation on just this fact alone, on the ideas of uh perfection through Christ and uh obtaining sinlessness and what does righteousness really mean? Um, what does it mean to become more like God? What does it mean to receive his power? I mean, this is these are such deep and important topics, and I know that people are going to disagree, and I know that people are going to have a hard time uh both in and out of the church, um, uh even apart from Mormonism or whatever. The thing that I hope people will suspend right now is uh or consider is a framework of merit and/or righteousness through grace. We cannot, this is not the Lord wants us to come up to um the joy of being able to be self-sufficient from the light and knowledge that he gives us. Put it a really simple analogy. Um parents to children. Uh do the children, when the parents give them gifts or give them instruction or even a master to an apprentice, there's so many different analogies that we can come up with here. Do the children or the apprentices do they um do they deserve the things that the that the master or the parents give them most of the time? Probably not. No, no, hardly ever. But they give them the master and the parents, the kings and the queens, give them nonetheless. And the expectation, especially, I learned this a while ago um from somebody that I really respect, that the concept of a gift in scriptural terms and especially ancient societies, is that you become worthy of the gift that you're given. When a parent gives a kid a bike, do they do they know how to ride a bike of uh you know, of their own strength and their own intelligence and their own uh you know prowess and and power? No, of course not. But what is so joyous to the parent and also to the child is when the child uses that gift as the parent would to do the greatest good and benefit that they can imagine.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Yeah, oh, I love that. I think you put that really well in what you're describing here is that balance between grace and works, because you have the Mormons and Christians would always say this to me when I was Mormon, oh, well, the the Mormons are trying to work their way to heaven, and I never knew the answer to that. Okay, but then you have the Christians that are like, well, we're saved by grace, we're saved by grace. So many friends that are like, it doesn't matter what you do, Claire, it doesn't matter what you do. Both of those theories are false. Okay, we're not saved by works, and we're not saved by I can do whatever I want and just proclaim Jesus. Yeah, there has to be a balance, and that's what you're describing really well, actually. So we can get into that for so long in another episode, but let's continue with what we're what we're going with here.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

So just a couple scriptures to drive this home real quick. I'll just pick one of them. Um, DNC 38, 26. Again, we're talking about um uh the kingdom of God is a meritocracy and that God is no respecter of persons. For what man among you have twelve having twelve sons and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto one, be thou clothed in robes, and sit thou there, and to the other, be thou clothed in rags, and sit thou there, and looketh upon his sons, and saith, I am just. Merit and power correlation. When claims of authority are divorced from demonstrations of power, you can discern that you are likely under unrighteous dominion. So again, God does not give anything to anybody that they are not ready for. And when we start to see a departure from people that are claiming that they have the choicest of blessings, yet there's no demonstration, according to very mercifully and gracefully, uh, that the Lord has given to us of the scriptures. I mean, scriptures are called the standard works, but we don't Mormonism, they don't seem to really be believed as the standard. Um and that the dribble and the the drops in the bucket are equal to the the great experiences that we are called to live up to in the standard works.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

Let me reword this sentence a little bit too, just to for layman's terms. When claims of authority divorced from demonstrations of the fruits of the spirit, you can discern are likely under unrighteous dominion. So if somebody is claiming that they have power and authority from God, but then their behavior is the opposite of what is described as the behaviors of Jesus Christ, that is unrighteous dominion. You can't, it is so hard to discern this when you are in a case of like abuse where it's called spiritual abuse, where somebody is saying, we're following God, we're believing God, but then all of their actions are aligning with actions of darkness. It is so important that we can discern unrighteous dominion. That's one of the reasons why I don't want to give up all of Doctrine and Covenants, because Doctrine Covenants really describes unrighteous dominion. Do I agree with all of Doctrine and Covenants? No. But it describes unrighteous dominion to a T. So like you can't miss it if you actually read the verses about unrighteous dominion.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

So critical.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Yeah, so critical.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

The last point on this sub point here, if you if you do the same things as the ancients or Joseph Smith, for example, and others of the Restoration, you will get the same result. You can't not. It's it's a divine law. If you're not getting the same result, you're not the same as them. And you shouldn't claim to have or be the same. But you can expect that when you do the things that they do, you will receive the same. So uh the big principle number three under light and truth, uh, the ideas of self-preservation, behavior patterns of condemned individuals and institutions. What would we expect to see in an organization highly favored at its beginning by God, but has now been under a state of divine condemnation for over 193 years? It's a long time. There is a pattern in all things. Is the modern LDS church in a cycle of spiritually prosperous favor or a cycle of degrading disfavor? The LDS institution shows multiple characteristics that in other domains, such as business, finance, uh the cycles of rise and fall of nations, health, nature, and many others, um, they all correlate with late-stage cycles. For example, increased boundary enforcement and message correlation can be interpreted as signs of institutional self-preservation common in it degrading late-stage systems. To be fair, late-stage systems do not necessarily equal degradation. The challenge with that, however, is you're working against the natural man. Any institution made by man is at great risk of falling prey to the effects of the natural man. Power wants to survive. If individuals or institutions get disconnected from the source of light and truth, truth obtained in the name of Jesus and lived accordingly, then it will consciously or unconsciously design ways to sustain its life through taking from others. Scripturally, this is called murder to get gain. I didn't have this on our notes here, but um I'll try not to spend too much time on this, but cancer is a very good analogy, describing or illustrating in real life these principles and these ideas. Cancer it multiplies on itself and it consumes everything around it, and it actually creates a barrier around itself to insulate it from anything that would disrupt its growth. So I'll I'll leave it at that. But um, I I think I had it in another version of our talk here. Um, but that's a very interesting analogy, and there's other analogies um like that. But let's continue um exploring this idea a little bit further. So there's two ways a murder to get gain appears: overt force or covert manipulation.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

Can you define those two things?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

Yeah, overt force, it's like um uh I'm gonna take over your village and and burn it down and pillage and steal all your stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

Okay. Covert manipulation is well, I mean it's manipulation. It's it's seeking to take advantage of people um for your own benefit or for someone's own benefit um in ways that are not uh not that are number one, not according to the reasons that somebody would have to agree to whatever um somebody that's trying to manipulate to to draw them into it. Um, but it's it's attempting to be done in the dark, you know, unconscious to individuals.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

Fair enough? Make sense? Oh yeah. Okay. Um, so this is the case with the LDS Church. I would I would suggest that it's more covert manipulation, that uh whether it's conscious or unconscious, I mean, that's up for debate. Um, I would say that it's a mix of both. But uh the LDS Church, uh, it was cut off from the light because of sin uh and uh becoming uh entering a state of condemnation. So we are told that we can trust leaders as our source of how to interpret spiritual and religious belief and practice, preaching doctrine that pacifies, leading people to believe that they can avoid confronting the darkness with the light through repentance. You know, look to us, the leaders, for direction. Now, I have a little subpoint here on this. Uh, I'll just read this really quick. So, not that someone adopting the basic agreed upon standards of the LDS church will not see improvement. I think that's really we we have to see the truth as things are. People will, you know, offer a counterargument to this that, well, but the church does so much good and it improves people's lives. Yeah, absolutely. So again, it's not that someone that's coming uh out of like Greater Babylon, uh, they can benefit from the truth and the light that is still in the church. I'm never making any sort of claim that there is no truth or light or goodness that is remaining in the church. There is plenty of it. However, um, well, we'll talk more about that later on how much that really is compared to what's available.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

Well, and I think when you're starving, a crumb is something, right? Right. So it's the same thing spiritually. If you're starving spiritually, the church it will offer you something because Absolutely. I I don't believe that members of the Mormon church don't worship the real Jesus. We all worship the Jesus that hung on a cross for us. Okay, we may have some facts wrong about that Jesus, right? But um, they still there are members that still worship Jesus Christ in in the Mormon church. And so that's where we we have to realize that everybody is in their own place, and that's why we're having this conversation so we can continue upward progression of getting into a better place, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

Absolutely, absolutely. So it's really important to call that out because what is true is true.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:23

So let's get into some data trends here.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:25

Yes, okay, let's do it. Uh, the loss of light and divine favor shown through the data trends. So we've gone over the history and we've gone over some really important principles about light and truth and how that operates in uh the lives of intelligent beings or of beings. Sometimes it's up for debate whether there's as much intelligence. So, anyway, um now that we have these foundations, we're gonna revisit the history and see the concrete trends put into the data points. Um, the loss of divine favor and revelation, even in Joseph Smith's day. Um, so if Condon. Produces loss of light, we should expect fewer divine manifestations at certain points. Historically, that's exactly what we see. This is one of the most revealing parts of the whole presentation that we have here.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:12

So when you're talking about divine manifestations, you're talking about manifestations of God to people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Correct? There's like three main categories that we're tracking here. Okay. Um as uh as part of the data. So um we'll see what that shows us in just a second here. So that is exactly what we see. We see this trend of loss of light through divine manifestations. So during Joseph Smith's lifetime, divine manifestations increase sharply from the early restoration period to the Kirtland era. Then, after a significant rupture of divine favor, there is a sharp decrease in overall revelatory experiences. After Joseph's death, it is a near total collapse of any institutional revelatory experiences. So adding up the historically credible revelatory accounts across three to four restoration era time periods, we see the clear trend. And we're going to name those time periods, and um uh I will talk about the um the categories of uh manifestations that uh that we're tracking here. Uh following the baseline of the early restoration, 1820 to 1831, then the Kirtlin era, 1831 to 1838, shows an approximate but sharp uh plus 296 increase in revelatory manifestations. Um, after Kirtlin, the post-Kirtlin Navu era, shows a steep 10% decline in published revelations and near-total collapse of theophanic divine angelic manifestation experiences. Um then post-1844 era after Joseph's death show a near-total collapse to the present day of all categories of revelatory experiences uh institutionally. Um so again, quickly um to be clear what those categories are theophanic experiences like God manifesting himself or um and angels like heavenly messengers. Um, that's the first category, and I would argue the most powerful and desirable category. Um, all these categories are not necessarily equal, but they are all beneficial in their own way. Next category is published or canonized revelations. And then the third category is published but uncanonized revelations. All three of those categories have in incredible and unique utility um in their own sphere. So those are the things that they were tracking um in uh in the data trends. Um for in the post show notes and stuff on the video, on the YouTube video, um, I'm gonna provide a link to uh the main body of this work, and you're gonna be able to see these data trends put into like a table. Thoughts on that majority.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:55

I mean, that's that's wild. It went from all these spiritual things happening to dead, like just nothing. That's concerning.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:05

It's concerning. Big questions is this normal? Well, maybe these implications are really not as severe as what is being suggested, Brandon. You know, like is it really that bad? Okay, well, let's explore that a little bit. Anciently, historically, scripturally, we have very few accounts of God actually interacting with large groups of people that were formed with the intention of being a righteous chosen people, such as the ones that we have record of, the city of Enoch, the Jaredites, Melchizedek and his people, the children of Israel, uh, you know, after they were formed as a nation after the Exodus at Mount Sinai, the Nephites, the New Testament church, and the Latter-day Saints. How many of these groups were successful in achieving a Zion state?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:55

Two. You put two on here.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

Two. The city of Enoch and uh and Melchizedek with his people, which both became one eventually, but they were two separate groups at one point. So what are the chances that we have it all right? That all is well in Zion, that the restoration is ongoing, and that we have the Lord's favor. This additionally reinforces the pattern on a macro scale of all these um people that the Lord invited to achieve the state of Zion, uh, on a macro scale, uh, revealing the uh of the natural man being an enemy to God. It reinforces the pattern. Few there be that actually find the right way of the Lord and maintain it. Even when God is calling and supporting a large uh a larger institution or even nations, the odds of the natural man being overcome by enough individuals to establish a right a righteous Zion society are honestly not great. But uh, God does love his enemies. Therefore, we see him giving many groups a chance to rise to their full potential. Perhaps there are even more that we do not have record of yet. And I'll add that even when those groups largely rejected the Lord time and time again, he was so merciful and so gracious to continue supporting them and continue calling them back to repentance, to come up to the highest invitation that he gave them, which seems like a pattern, that the Lord offers the highest invitation at the beginning, at the very first. Any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:34

Will you define Zion for us as as we define Zion? Because Zion has uh a lot of definitions for it in this world, and and what you know, Zionism is a word that's thrown around us. What are we talking about when we're talking about Zion?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:48

Yeah, well, uh we'll we'll we'll stay away from Zionism.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:52

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:53

Just want to clarify this for our audience, and that's and that's a complex uh discussion on all on that zone, but uh, but yes. So let's do let's define it. We've had almost 196 years to achieve Zion since April 6th, 1830, when the church was renewed and established again in our times. How are we doing? Can we honestly say that the church is in a state of and uh or even moving towards the state of Zion, which will define, as the scriptures define, a people of one heart and one mind, seeing eye to eye where no poor are among them.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:34

You know, even within the church, that's a very interesting definition. Um, because within the church, we're seeing such a wide array of beliefs now. Whereas now it's okay to be in the church and to do whatever. And we're just seeing this acceptance of worldliness. I would call it worldliness. We're seeing this acceptance of, you know, I can do my thing and still be a Mormon. And that's it's a very liberal perspective that's coming out now. And it didn't used to be that way. Like pretty much across the board, we all used to basically believe the same thing and even have the same morals, even if we didn't live them, we had them. Okay, like we knew what they were, we knew what the standard was. Yeah. And now it's like, well, I don't have to wear my garments this time or that time, or you know, modesty is different for everyone, or you know, oh well, my husband watches porn and we're just we just work through that, you know. Working through it, and you shouldn't get a divorce if your husband is betraying you with pornography every day of his life. Like, there's just so many things that are just this big mix, it's just a muddy mess at this point, where having one heart and one mind and having no porn among us, can you even imagine that? That sounds so beautiful to all be on the same page about Christ and how he wants us to live and then taking care of each other all the time. And even if in this world, even if you can get a community of people that see eye to eye about Christ, they're still not taking care of each other. And it drives me crazy.

unknown 1:14:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:05

But that's the world we live in. And we I call it the the marriages, babies, and funerals principle. Everyone will be there for you if you get married or you have a baby or you have a funeral, they'll be there for you. But they're not there for you when you really, really, really just need humans and humanity and love and care. And so that's where I think even those of us that woke up, we got really excited about Zion. We're like, we're gonna build Zion now. We're out of the church, we love the Lord, we're living in righteousness, and we can't do it, we're not doing it. And I think it's worth asking why why? Why are we not doing it?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

Yeah. Well, there's a lot that we could talk about there. Um, I think just to touch on the last point that you brought up there, Claire, just because people may step away from the church, whatever that looks like for them, or or remain in the church and have similar ideas or you know, camaraderie with um what we could consider uh a better understanding of things, a more true understanding of things, that doesn't mean that we're free of our false traditions.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:10

That doesn't mean that we're free of the stumbling blocks that they create. That doesn't mean that we see clearly our own deception and our and our own illusions. The challenge is as long as those are being avoided, um, which is the uh the desire of the natural man to avoid those things, um, then we're gonna have problems.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:30

Yeah, definitely. I I think it's a it's an ego problem a little bit for for all of us, where you know, we don't want to just put our lives out there for people to scrutinize. That that's very um, it's not the popular thing to do. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:44

Painful.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:46

But there is power, and and I say this all the time. I am an open book. I don't have any secrets, don't need to have secrets. I think when you start to feel like you need to have secrets, that that's really concerning in any any group of people, whether that's even just a family unit or a church unit or a community unit. We don't need to have secrets. And the reason why we don't need to have secrets is because if we have Jesus Christ, we don't need to hide all these things that we try so hard to hide. There's no need to. Because if you're struggling with this sin, all right, let's pick you back up, turn you to Jesus, let's get back on the path, right? There isn't this giant amount of shame attached to the things that we need to work on in our lives. We're all human, we're all here together. Let's get closer to Christ together. Like simple, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:33

Uh just to try to touch on this briefly. Uh, I think what you're bringing up is a really, really important points. And I think in the future, as things progress, um, I've heard people share this again, some people that are really respect their ideas, but we will start to see more communities that are coming together and that they are growing so much closer together in righteous ways, um, that we know each other so well. And the people that are the closest to Christ, that that are more like Jesus than others, um, it'll be a it'll be a congregation, it'll be a group of people that were able to help overcome those kinds of things, that people will know each other to that level. I think as time goes on, we're gonna see that more. And it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:21

Yeah, I think so. And I I think I see another issue too, where sometimes when we're in this place where we're waking up, we kind of can get stuck in our head a little bit. I've done this, so I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, okay? But we have an intellectual understanding of the gospel, but what we need to do is we then need to go out and have gospel experiences. We need to have experiences with Christ. And I say this all the time: like, I don't want to hear about what God told you anymore. Okay. I want to hear about what has God showed you. How have you seen God in your life? How have you experienced him in your life?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

What difference is it making where you go? How is your life better?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:55

Exactly. Because if he told you something and it isn't changing anything about your existence, what's the point of him telling you that at all? And how are you even gonna know it's true because you haven't gone out and experienced it? And so it's a two-part thing. I'm not downplaying the intellectual, like you have to understand. You have you have to have the knowledge. That's the first step. But then you have to go out and live it. And that's my experience, my husband's experience, a whole nother awakening when we realize this isn't just about what we understand about the word up here. It's about what we understand here and what are we doing with our hands and our feet once we understand it, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:29

Let's get into a little bit more about so here's the implied conclusions of everything we're trying to say and and the false traditions, rethink re reframing authority. Let's get into that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:38

What conclusions does this information lead us to? The source of most of our problems as a people or members of the LDS Church or former members, um, people that had a have or have a relationship with the LDS Church, um, not necessarily in order, um, but are the following false traditions. We're not under condemnation. We are the chosen people, um, as one. Next one. Even if we are under condemnation, it's not that severe. And the church will never be taken from the earth or apostatized again anyway. So it's just not that big of a deal. Either, and sub subpoints to that point there, we either don't need further light and truth, or we do need it, the leaders of the church, they've got it, but the members are not really ready or worthy or living up to it. Or we do need it, the body of the church, and the leaders, uh, we do need it, and the leaders nor the body of the members which they come from do not have it, nor are they ready or worthy of it. But again, you know, the church is, you know, it's under condemnation, not that severe. The church will never apostatize, you know, the president of the church can't ever lead the church astray. So, you know, we at least got that. Continuing on, next major point of uh of some really choice false traditions, that the leaders are actual prophets, seers, and revelators, as much as any prophet in history, modern or ancient. Um, of course, we've mentioned this a little bit. Uh, the Lord will never let the prophet or the president of the church lead uh lead us astray. And repentance doesn't mean being perfect in this life. Um a scripture for us to consider that God, if if perfection in this life is not the goal, and it never was, or never will be, or it's not possible, then God will justify us in committing a little sin. And if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:34

Which that whole list that you just pointed out, that is the Korohor doctrine, which is that verse in Second Nephi. Like Korohor was this guy that's essentially teaching, do whatever you want, because in the end, God's gonna beat you with a few stripes, but then in the end you'll be saved. So it's not a big deal. Do whatever you want, eat, drink, be merry, tomorrow we die. No big deal. And these are like, I call them the justification principles, where we just we justify, justify, justify to make the prophets and the leaders and and the members in some cases seem like, oh, these people are so righteous and they're doing what they what they're supposed to do, but you're justifying all this garbage. How far do we justify the garbage before we put our foot down and say, no more, no more garbage?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:19

Exactly. Just continuing off what Clara was saying, um, as heavy as it hand as it sounds to some, we do not have prophets, seers and revelators, or apostles for that matter, leading the LDS church. Looking at things through these principles, if they are true or accurate, it is as clear as day that we do not have those things. We would not call someone a healer if they did not heal, a dancer if they did not dance, a warrior if they did not fight, a lover that does not love, a leader if they do not lead, a savior that does not save. So why do we call leaders of the church prophets, seers, and revelators when they do not do those things? According to the standards, um, according to the standards professed to that that we believe in, profess to believe in, as Joseph Smith actually demonstrated in modern times and prophets in the scriptures, um, who we still profess to believe in. We claim to have a continuing restoration, yet we have none of the same experiences as when Joseph Smith was alive and leading the church. In reality, we are clinging to the slowly dying embers of the snuffed-out, raging fire of the initial restoration through Joseph. Now, the thought that was coming to me, which I think is important, I mean, this this sounds really condemning uh against leaders, because it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:44

Um pretty bleak, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:46

So, but consider this. I mean, uh, I I would be, I I don't, I don't have any faith that this will ever happen. But imagine if we all just were willing to explore these ideas and be completely honest. And let's say that we came to more or less these conclusions, like, okay, you know, we're not showing fruits of what we claim our titles should produce. So um, maybe things are different. That doesn't mean that we can't have leaders of the church. That doesn't mean that we can't have people who are more spiritually advanced or better people than we are, closer to Jesus than we are as leading the church. But we don't have to call them prophets, we don't have to call them apostles and seers and revelators when they don't do those things. We can just be honest about it and say, hey, I'm leading the church now, or whatever, you know, we're we're leading the church, you guys asked us to lead the church, and we we're gonna do that, you know, whatever. And we're just honest about it. These are the this is the high um standard of of these callings to lead the church, which is to become a prophet, to become a seer and a revelator and an apostle by actually receiving a personal manifestation of the Lord in your life so that you can actually be a special witness and declare without ambig ambiguity, uh, mind you, that yes, Jesus is real and he has visited me many times. I know that he is real and that he has rose from the dead, and that he is the savior and creator of the world. I mean, if we could at least be honest and say, I don't have that yet. But you guys are asking us, you're calling us to lead um for various reasons, but this is this is the calling that we're all invited to, and we will do our best to help everyone um live up to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:42

I think that really heals the term leader, um, because I think all of us have an aversion to the word leader. We all go once we've left the church because there's so much like you know, spiritual abuse really that's going on with this idea of like follow this guy even though he's evil. Like it doesn't even make sense. Um but um if you can look at it the way you just described, a leader is somebody that's basically gonna help someone else learn how to become a leader themselves, which is learning how to get in the ditches and love other people, do as Jesus did, heal people, cast out demons, all those things. That's what a true leader is. And so I don't want to have an aversion to the word leader because I want to be a leader. And I don't mean I want to be a leader because I want to be over everybody and I'm so much better than everyone else. I want to be a leader because I want to show you Jesus Christ, the way that he has shown me himself. And then he will he will also reveal himself to you. Like leaders are not this higher pedestal thing. We're just people trying to help other people. That's what true leaders are, and I think that's what we all should be seeking to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:48

Yeah. Um, you know, just to again take a piggyback off that the most helpful and revealing, useful definition of love that I've ever heard is this, and it honestly answers so many things and helps so many things make more sense and fall into place. So love, godly love is somebody's willingness to suffer for the benefit of another person. You gotta have both of those. If you're suffering because you love somebody, but it's not benefiting them, well, it's not godly love. It's not helping them. Perhaps it's enabling them. Or if you are just trying to benefit people, but you're not actually, but your heart's not in it, and you haven't gone through anything in your life to benefit them, well, then you can't love them at the at to the degree that somebody else who has been through that, who has paid the price, who has descended and overcome the chaos, to provide that to others. So we have to have uh we have to have both. We have to be willing to go through painful things if it's helpful for other people. And that's the most helpful and uh the best definition of love, especially godly love that I think I've ever considered.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:13

That's gonna hit hard for all the people that have suffered greatly because it gives you purpose in your suffering. I feel like my family's been through hell. And we're doing this podcast, and I relate to people because we've been through hell. That's the only reason why. And um, I ask God all the time, like, why do you want me to do these things, Lord? Because I understand things through suffering, and all of us gain greater understanding through suffering, and we don't need to feel ashamed of our suffering, which is such a tendency in this world. There are so many times I'm like, pretty sure people just think I'm cursed at this point because the suffering doesn't stop. Sometimes it gets worse, and people know that I can't hide it. Um, but to understand that kind of love. To be able to enter into somebody's suffering and give them that space to love them through it, to be there for them in the way that they need to be there. Wow, what a dream to have a community like that. Like that is that is Zion, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:15

Could it be Zion?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:16

So I guess let's let's go back to this topic of okay, we're not seeing that in the church. Okay, because of the continual loss of light. So what does all this mean for those of us waking up, coming out of the church, staying in the church, being awake? What does it mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:31

Absolutely. We could ask the question: can't we just be aware of these things but stay in the church? Well, here is the danger and the risk and the likely detriment of remaining under these false traditions. Many who are in an abusive relationship cannot see clearly enough to know how detrimental that environment really is. The church is under clear unrighteous dominion. As difficult as that sounds, and again, whether it's all conscious or unconscious, uh, you know, it's unrighteous dominion. Perhaps, again, it's not always conscious, as previously mentioned, but uh, but parasitic, abusive enslavement, nonetheless. In the end times, God will reveal all things. And what does this mean? Well, I used to think, wow, that's cool. Yeah, all the all the bad guys, you know, they're gonna get their, they're gonna get their uh get their comeuppance, you know, they're gonna, we're gonna know all the the stuff and it's gonna be great. We're gonna know all things, we're gonna know all the bad people's things and know all the good things that the Lord has to give us. Well, uh my perception of that was rudely awakened at one point. One of the main things that this means, that in the end times God will reveal all things, is that the true value of all things will be revealed. All of the things that people believe are so good are actually filthy rags. The things that you thought were completely and totally pure, precious, and desirable are an illusion, worth next to nothing. What you thought was rare, precious gold was in fact common, barren dirt, dust of the earth. So ultimately, this leads us to a major decision that uh many of us um being circled around here. Should I stay in the church or should I leave the church? What will the what will the consequences what will the consequences be of either? The reality is either one could be right for someone, depending on counseling with God based on their individual circumstances. Here are some helpful discerning tools to potentially help that I personally have found extremely helpful. Um, you only have so much resource, so much time in life. And this time of life is the time to prepare to meet God. So when looking to spend one's time and energy in anything available in life, we really must ask, how much am I able to give? How much am I able to receive? So that I will add, I can give even more. What is the church but a place to give and receive? How much are you able to give and receive in the church? How valuable is that in reality? Are you deceiving yourself regarding how valuable your participation in the church is? A church that does not focus on teaching and living the highest and best truth and coming free of its false traditions, or at least being willing to consider that it has false traditions and what those are and what the what their implications are, keeps its members from God. Is there something more valuable that you could be doing to give and receive for the improvement and benefit of your own life and the lives of those in your influence? Here are two important principles and standards that we get from the scriptures. God only does things for the greatest benefit of the entire world. God only does things that are good. In other words, that makes things better in the path of becoming the best it possibly can be. I feel like I probably need to share a bit of a um personal experience. Like, where am I at? Where is this branding guy? Where is he at? What's he doing? Is he going to church? Is he not going to church? What's he doing? Why? Um I've had these feelings. This has been a work in progress for, as I kind of mentioned, you know, 2021, it really started to um snowball, and and I I felt in my soul that I needed to explore this more. And uh I was active in the church, uh, going to church up until last year. Um, I started going a little bit less. Um, and then in July of last year, after I taught a lesson on the mysteries of godliness um that uh was not as well received as I had hoped, um uh I stopped going. I stopped going. And it wasn't just because of that lesson, mind you. Um, this was this has been something on my mind for years. I kept going because the Lord, uh for a long time, for years, um for several years at least, I kept going um because the Lord gave me reasons to go. Even though I was like, oh man, really, should I really keep going? I had reasons to go. I had a calling that I was committed to. I was in the Sunday school, and that actually gave me opportunities to teach every now and then. And I had some really great experiences. Last one, not so much, but some really great teaching moments um that I had to be really judicious in and how how far do we go with uh with things that uh that people are potentially able to receive or willing to receive. I had some really good experiences. But after that calling was over, and um after uh the last time that I was asked to teach anything was over, then it became really clear to me I had more beneficial things that I could work on with my time. It it takes time. I mean, it's not the most time of anything in life, but it takes time to get the family together, to get yourself dressed and prepared for church, and to go, to be there at church, and then to you know wind down after it. Um, you know, it's not the biggest thing in the world, but the things that the Lord has put on my heart and my mind, um, time is stressed during the rest of the week. So it became increasingly clear to me that it was more beneficial, I could do greater good by ceasing to attend. And that's that's what the decision was for me. I know people um who believe very similar things to uh to what I believe, um, that uh that res that follow people that you know that I highly respect um and that are even you know excommunicated from the church, you know, wrongfully, I might add. Um and uh but they still go to church. They still go. Um my wife and my kids are still going um for their time being, but um, you know, we're looking to replace what the church is offering, even them, with something that we can do on our own. But until that time, um, you know, there are some reasons for my wife and my children to keep continue going. But for myself, the decision became clear. With all that being said, we need to remind ourselves about the nature and uh consequences of light and truth. You must be growing, getting closer to God and improving. If you're not, well, using your time wisely, I might add, and improving through that, if you're not, you are dying spiritually. How much improvement are you experiencing being part of a dying church? Like the hypothetical abuse of relationship, the full consequences and lack of value of continuing to participate in such an organization will not be fully realized until later, either until you meet your end in that relationship or you leave it. Sufficient truth is available now to discern and answer these questions. Here are some reasonable standards that we must consider to possibly remain in a dying organization and yet be connected to the light and truth and life of God's favor. If you have good reasons why it is still the most valuable thing to stay in the church, are you willing to do the following? Stand up for the truth by respectfully and yet boldly challenging false traditions and precepts of men? Are you willing to face the ridicule, the scoffs and the scorns, the weird looks, the shunning and the shame of those whose status quo you are challenging? Are you willing to face likely church discipline? At minimum, um being asked not to speak in class, pray, speak in large meetings, or not even speak about what you believe in private. That's a new one. That's been happening.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:29

Yeah, no kidding.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:31

Um here are the risks. If you are not willing or you are afraid to increasingly commit to experiencing the above, you, by the nature of light and truth, as hard as it sounds, are rejecting and ashamed of it. You are rejecting and ashamed of Jesus, who is the truth. You are his enemy. You are under condemnation. You will miss greater truth when it comes, because you are darkened in your mind and your understanding, and you will not be able to perceive it when it comes. Greater truth will be necessary to pass through the fire of the last days. If you step out of the way of truth by rejecting it, then you have not found and and and are not in the narrow way which if you find. You will be darkened in your mind, you will be left to your own devices, strength, and understanding to face the increasing fire of the last days. You will be unprepared for greater, more terrible things that are coming. And they are coming. You will be filled with fearful astonishment and the bitterness of eternal regret the pains of hell. I will tell you, we all have to come to terms with the illusions that we've believed, with the desires of the natural man, that we want more than God. And it is a hellish experience to have those things revealed to you, especially by people that are more like that are more like God than you are. But the other side is far better.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:27

So the short answer to the question that everybody is asking, should I stay or should I go? What do I do if I do leave the church? The short answer is we don't have the answer to that question for you. The best thing that you can do is go to God and ask him what he wants to do with you and with your life. And as you are doing that, it is so important to recognize these things that we've been talking about tonight because I do believe there are people in the church that have a mission to fulfill in the church for a time. But if we're just going to church and going along with the narrative and pretending to fit in with everyone else, I don't think that we are fulfilling that mission that God has for us. And so it's it's something to think about when we're asking ourselves these questions.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:16

Absolutely. That leads us to the concluding summary of this whole project that we have introduced here. What does this information help you to do as the listeners to the podcast, especially the ones that are struggling with what to do? How to see the present state of the church themselves, and it's even leadership included. Here's the most important above all else. You can be free of condemnation and sin through faith in Christ and repentance. Next, the church is in a messed up, confused state of darkness and condemnation. It is not showing signs, unfortunately, uh institutionally, that are required to be made free of this condemnation. It's not even being discussed. The church will continue to get worse, especially for those who do repent and live up to the light and truth that they have. You should not give anyone or anything, anything title or authority that it does not merit, uh, that doesn't match its behaviors or results. Next one, you can be at peace in leaving the church if that is what would genuinely improve your life by bringing you closer to Jesus' character. Leaving the church does not equal abandoning Jesus. Leaving the church does not equal following Jesus. You should only do whatever Jesus would do in your place. You can stay in the church if you can answer with honest reasons, not deceiving yourself, why this would be the greatest benefit improvement in your life over alternatives and for those in your sphere of influence. Remember, God never does anything that is not for the greatest benefit, so we should not either. That is the ultimate conclusion, but um it is important. There are so many things, um directions that we could go and things to talk about, things that you probably disagree with uh in this presentation, even though you may agree with the um the main assumptions or uh claims that are being made. So, um a selection of relevant unanswered questions that were not deeply addressed in this presentation and are uh really relevant and needed to be discussed in depth in other presentations at another time. So, questions like, well, what about priesthood keys and authority? Aren't the leaders servants of the Lord? You know, where do we go for authority if if they don't really have authority? Is there such a thing as authority? What about that? Can leaders have inspiring good ideas, but not be prophets, apostles, seers, revelators, etc. What about saving ordinances in the temple? What about eternal marriage and families? What about the many spiritual experiences that I andor others have in the church? Doesn't that mean it's true? But the church is so successful and does so much good spiritually and temporally. How could it be bad? If the church doesn't have these things, where do I go? Is there another organization that has these things? For another time.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:24

These are all questions that I think we ask ourselves through our awakening journey, and I think that um God will answer those questions for us as we we continue to follow him. And so that's our invitation with this narrative here, and with this, what we're trying to teach is go and seek Jesus Christ for yourself, but don't just go and seek him to know him in your mind. Seek him to know him in your heart and in your life and to truly have the goal that people are going to see him through you so that we can all be vessels in Christ. Thank you so much, Brandon, for coming on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:56

Thank you, Claire. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.