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The Clairity Podcast
The Clairity podcast encourages our walk in relationship with Jesus. We cover topics that real people experience all the time and seek clarity through Jesus in His word, and through our experiences with Him. The Clairity podcast offers practical ideas and practices for the everyday believer who is attempting to navigate the life they’ve been given. The Clairity podcast also offers hope, light, and peace to those navigating difficult circumstances and tough questions, no matter your background, religious affiliation, or location.
The Clairity Podcast
Excommunicated for Jesus
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Join us on this week's episode of the Clairity Podcast where we engage with Sarah Quist in a conversation about excommunication. Should people be excommunicated from the LDS church for simply sharing their beliefs that about polygamy? Tune in to hear the full break down of Sarah's experience getting kicked out of the LDS church!
Hey everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of the Clarity Podcast. I'm your host, Claire, and this week's guest is Sarah Quist. Sarah is originally from Payson, Utah, and she is 52 years old. And Sarah recently got excommunicated from the church, and we're gonna hear why she got excommunicated and all the things leading up to her excommunication. So tune in for the full episode. Let's go ahead and jump into it. Everyone has a journey they are walking. And along that road, we are met with potholes, road bumps, rain, storms, and sometimes just fog.
SPEAKER_03But through it all, we're really just looking for one thing. Clarity. Clarity.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to the podcast, Sarah. Thank you, Claire. So happy to be here. We're so happy you're here. So why don't you go ahead and give us some background? What was your Mormon dynamic when you were being raised in the church?
SPEAKER_00Sure. So I grew up in a very large family. I'm number 10 out of 11, nine girls, two boys. I had a pretty good childhood. My mother was an absolute angel. She taught me service. She taught me compassion. She was very, very Christ-like. My dad was a seminary teacher for a long time, over 30 years. So gospel church was very centered in our home. We would get up every morning, nice and early, for scripture study. My dad was quite a scripture scholar, so we we would go very in deep, very deep in scriptures, which I'm really grateful for. It gave me a good foundation, a good understanding of scriptures. Growing up as a teenager, I had a lot of questions that I really didn't find answers for. There were things that just did not sit right with me. Polygamy was a huge one. A huge one. And I felt like kind of like second class as a female. I felt like the boys were, the males were more important.
SPEAKER_02Can you tell us a little bit about that? Like what were the things that maybe caused that sense?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, my dad, um, so he was an older generation. He was born in 1928. So um he was kind of the the head of the household very much. And you know, getting that sense also at at church, just the the men that that held the priesthood were in authority. So I I really struggled with authority and that power, and I didn't understand priesthood. I thought the men were the priesthood. I mean, that's how they presented. No matter what they do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I that's that's where I I feel like I got some of my my issues with with authority and and priesthood.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you're questioning polygamy, authority, priesthood. What else when you were a teenager were you questioning?
SPEAKER_00Um, just my role as as a female, because you know, n I um not that being a mother was wrong or staying home with the children was wrong, but I just I felt limited with that. Like I I didn't feel like I could really dream big and do more with with my life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, because they teach you that your purpose is to get married in the temple. Yes. And then they don't really tell you much beyond the temple marriage, right? It's just like, oh, you did it. Check, you're good, but then like the tips for what you do after that, it's very limited. Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and you know, education wasn't super encouraged, you know. Um, and I I did want to to get an education and and who was the prophet during your time when you were a teenager? Um Kimball. Oh, okay. Um, when I was young, and then of course Hinckley, okay Benson and Hinckley later.
SPEAKER_02Hinckley was when I was a kid, and that's when I think the education for girls really changed. And then all of a sudden the girls had to go to college. It did change.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. But back in the the 70s and into the 80s, yeah. Um so yeah, during during that time when I was a teenager, my oldest brother, who we're 20 years apart, he was excommunicated. Oh, okay. Um, so that that caused some rifts in my family, and he went into New Age.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Uh followed the New Age movement. And so I I met my husband when I was 15, and he was 20. Wow. Um, but we didn't hook up until years later. That's good. Yeah. But I dated his younger brother.
SPEAKER_02Oh. Yeah. Wow, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right family, wrong brother. Right, okay. So um we we got hooked up when I was 19 and started dating, and and then in 1994 we got married when I was 20. Um, and then a year later we went through the Salt Lake City Temple.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. So you were not married in the temple originally, not not originally.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Why weren't you married in the temple? Oh, we we had relations. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02That's usually the reason, but you know, we're open to this possibility. No, no, we're open.
SPEAKER_00No, we had a really we had relations beforehand, and oh, yeah. Back then it was not as common as it is now.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, now it's everyone. It's everyone. And I think a lot of kids go to the temple and they lie to get into the temple. I agree. So I think it's probably different in your day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So, you know, early 90s, yeah. That was like taboo. Oh, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02Does that cause drama in your family?
SPEAKER_00A little bit. Okay. Yeah. We we sort of eloped, actually. Oh, okay. Because there was there was some upsets in the family. So we we eloped. Um the the bishop married us, but we invited our parents. So our parents were there. Okay. The bishop married us, and then we spent that year preparing and we went through the temple a year later.
SPEAKER_02So, what were you taught at that time about repentance, about sexuality? Were you taught correct principles?
SPEAKER_00Was it handled correctly? No, it it was just nothing but shame. Okay. Guilt and shame, shame, shame, shame.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. Were you encouraged to get married or to not get married?
SPEAKER_00Um, yes. I mean, we were encouraged to get married, but but because it wasn't in the temple, it was, you know, yeah. Unfortunately, there was there was a little bit of shame there. So but when when we year later, when we finally went through the temple, then everyone was happy.
SPEAKER_02Oh such an interesting culture, and that it is. They should be happy if you if you're doing that and you get married. That's I think the right way to handle it if you're with the right person, right? Right. Um, if you're not with the right person, repentance should happen. Go find the right person, get married, okay? Yeah, but if you're with the right person, there should be encouraging marriage, and the fact that the temple isn't a part of it and there's shame heaped upon it, extra layer. Right. I don't think it's healthy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So um, but I have to say, I I hated the temple when we went through. I I hated it. Interesting. It was a terrible experience. How old were you when you went through? 21. Okay, so tell us about your temple experience. Well, see, I'm I'm coming into it with all this baggage. I feel like dirt beneath men's feet because I'm second class, I'm female, so the temple did not help at all. And it was weird. Like we took the temple prep class, but it it didn't prepare.
SPEAKER_02No, it doesn't it doesn't prepare. Okay, signs and symbols. And then you go in and you're like, huh? What is this?
SPEAKER_00What did I just do? Yeah, it freaked me out. But you know, that was the thing to do. So I forced myself to go for four years. Four years. We just kept going, do gotta do the work for the dead, and kept going. Yeah. So meanwhile, my my brother starts to share new age ideas and beliefs with me. And he was also very aware of the corruption in the church and knew about uh SRA, uh sexual ritual abuse. So he was sharing all that with me.
SPEAKER_02Is that why he left the church? Was for that reason?
SPEAKER_00Um, I don't I'm not sure what all his reasons were for leaving it, but but he was well aware of of corruption in the church. And it's a good reason. And and I was already had issues with authority, with um, so it is fed right in. So I just grabbed on to all those ideas. Yeah. Um, and so 1999, um, we moved up to Washington State, and getting away from family, I felt like, okay, now I can pull away. And so I started to pull away from the church, and about a year and a year and a half later, we moved back to Utah, and that's when I took my name off the records.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay, wait. So describe to us what pulling away looked like because there's this thing that people think that you just wake up one day and you're like, I'm done. Yeah, just I don't think it works that way.
SPEAKER_00It kind of gradually stopped going to church less and less and less, and I started reading more books on New Age. And yeah, so by the time we moved back to Utah, I was like, I'm done. And okay, and how old were you? Um twenty-five. Okay, so very young. This is like the beginning of your life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so um Samuel, my husband, he he never lost his testimony of Jesus or the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith. But as I was pulling out, he just went inactive because that was easy.
SPEAKER_04Right, right.
SPEAKER_00So he kind of just stopped going to church, but we weren't we weren't exactly on the same page as far as as our beliefs. And unfortunately, um, this is kind of a new agey thing to do, but I I eventually denied Jesus Christ as our savior because um there's no sin. Why do we need a savior?
SPEAKER_02Interesting. The depths of new age is very it's dark, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is, it really is. And and it's funny because a lot of these ideas are are um found in the Book of Mormon, like the tools that Satan uses, yeah. Some of these ideas, such as there is no such thing as sin.
SPEAKER_01Right, uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, and so I I spent about 15 years in New Age.
SPEAKER_02Wow. So you were all in I was all in New Age. 15 years.
SPEAKER_00And uh all of a sudden, um, so we were living in St. George at the time. Um, so this was 2014, 2015. It just started to dawn on me. Man, I I've gone nowhere spiritually. All these years, I've I felt like I was um chasing a proverbial carrot. Like I've gone nowhere.
SPEAKER_02So a lot of people get into New Age because they're seeking some kind of healing. I think. Oh, yes. So what was that for you? Like what what made you think, oh, new age could help heal me?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And and so I did have some trauma in my youth. Um, um, I was sexually molested by my grandfather. And so I was always seeking healing from that. And so I got into I was a massage therapist and so I got into energy healing, like Reiki and stuff, and did that for years. And I started to realize that I what I call fake healing, it was fake healing. Um, because I was constantly searching for for something, some kind of fulfillment. Like I had a hole in within me, and nothing was filling it, and so I just kept going to the next thing and the next thing.
SPEAKER_02So when you were molested as a child, did you have any help in the church to heal from that?
SPEAKER_00No. None.
SPEAKER_02Was it even talked about in your family?
SPEAKER_00Not really. So it was just thrown under the rug. It was, and and um my grandfather had actually molested um some of my sisters and cousins. So yeah, it was not talked about.
SPEAKER_02Wow. I think that's one of the biggest flaws in the church is that we just don't talk about deep sin.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And we think that that somehow takes the shame away. Exactly. It's not what takes shame out of stuff. In fact, talking about it as the opposite. And so there's a level of healing that you don't find in the church, and so then you go look, of course, you're gonna go look for it somewhere else.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. So yeah, so about 2015, I was like, oh my gosh, this this is all nonsense. And I practically overnight I just abandoned it. So that's the new age was all nonsense, and you abandoned it. Abandoned it, dumped it all. Okay, uh, got rid of all my books, the deck of cards and crystals and everything. Holy cow, I stopped doing energy healing, I just dumped it. So that kind of threw me into what I call limbo, spiritual limbo. So about that time, 2015, we um bought our first house in Payson, Utah. And that same year my my father passed away. And so um, in I I was very, very skeptical at that point. Just I didn't know what to believe. I knew there was a higher power, and sometimes I would pray, but it was a terrible place to be. So would you call yourself like agnostic during that time? Yeah, probably. Okay. Yeah, that would be a good term. Um, but during this time, Samuel, my husband, started to share his testimony of Jesus. And so at first I was like, here he goes again.
SPEAKER_02Did this cause any turmoil in your marriage when you were new age and he's still a little bit?
SPEAKER_00Okay. There was some, yeah. We had some rough spots where uh yeah. But um, he he's been my rock, he's just always been by my side. And and so he just starts sharing his testimony of Jesus. And at first I was rolling my eyes, but then it was like, hmm, I wonder if there's something there, you know. But in 2017, I went back to school and I went to UVU, uh Utah Valley University, and I ended up um in uh biotechnology and uh got a scholarship from the National Science Foundation, and so part of that scholarship I had to create and conduct my own research project. And so um it was it was extremely demanding and highly stressful, and it just absolutely consumed my life. And in 2019, um, a friend of mine challenged me to reread my patriarchal blessing. I was like, oh, that was shredded like 20 years ago. Like but I kept thinking about it and I got really curious. So I d I decided, hmm, I think I want to read that again. So I went over to my mom's house and was looking through my dad's files, like thinking he might have a copy. He didn't, but I did find um my father's patriarchal blessing to me. So he he gave his children a patriarchal blessing, a father's patriarchal blessing. So I found that and and then with the help of uh our bishop, I was able to request a copy of my patriarchal blessing from the church. And so I had these two blessings, and and that kind of started things for me. So summer of 2019 2019. Um there were some really profound things in those blessings. And and I thought I I think I need to reacquaint myself with Jesus. But again, school just consumed my life, so it wasn't until December of 2019 when I uh was on break that um I decided to read the book Days of the Living Christ by Cleon Scousen. And it all familiar stories. I mean, I I knew scriptures, it was all familiar, but at the end of the book, he talks about the atonement in a way I'd never heard it before. And also, as I had been reading that book, so when I was um 18, I went to Israel. I spent about three or four weeks in Israel, uh, traveled with BYU study abroad. And you know, I'm 18. I, you know, I couldn't wrap my mind around what I was experiencing uh at that time, but now here it is, all these years later, all those memories, all those experiences just came flooding back. And I was like, oh my gosh, I was there, like I walked where Jesus walked, and it had such a profound experience for me that I was like, I I think I think he's our savior. And so here it is at the beginning of of 2020, January. So I come to Sam and I was like, I I think Jesus is our savior. And he just he cried. And he says, Let's pray. I mean, we hadn't prayed together in 20 years. So we started to pray together every morning. And we also started to to read and study about Jesus on Sundays. Um and it wow, what what a difference it made in my life. And that at that moment, Jesus uh healed me. He healed me after all those years of searching and searching for healing. He healed me in the most profound ways, and uh he transformed me. And he it was, I mean, that's a mighty change of heart. Like he transformed me. And so years later, people have always asked me, What brought you back? And it was this Jesus Christ reminded me who he is, and then he reminded me who I am. That's what brought me back. So as April approached the general conference, I get this strong feeling you need to watch. I was like, oh, I haven't watched that in 20 years. So I told Sam, I'm like, I think we should watch General Conference. I mean, his jaw just dropped. What? So we did, we watched the whole thing. Both of us just cried and cried through the whole thing because we were so spiritually starved that even what little General Conference had to offer, it was just like this little bit of food to our souls. And right during the middle of that, I get this really strong impression call the bishop. I was like, oh no way, there's no way I'm going back to church because I had no intentions at that time. I was like, no, you need to call the bishop. I was like, okay, so I did, and he was just so happy to hear from me. And I said, I think I'm supposed to meet with you. Okay, okay. So this is the beginning of COVID, right?
SPEAKER_02Oh my goodness, which is crazy because most people were leaving the church during COVID, and you're coming. I'm coming back.
SPEAKER_00I know the irony of it. So funny. Um, and I I told him, I said, I I would like to meet in person because by then, you know, church wasn't meeting. And he's like, Oh yeah, okay. And I said, and I'm not wearing a face diaper. And he's like, Oh, I won't either. Let's meet. I mean, he was so excited.
SPEAKER_02So okay, wait. So you are now pro-Jesus coming back to the church, anti-COVID match. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Wow, you are in quite the position, all right? Okay.
SPEAKER_00So we started to meet, and and he was wonderful. He he just we had wonderful discussions, wonderful conversations. And after a few weeks, he's like, let's invite Sam. And so we were all meeting together and having these great discussions, and I knew what was coming. Like, I'm like, oh, I don't want to get baptized. I do want to get baptized, I don't want to get baptized. And so we we were talk discussing that, and I mean, my heart, I I wanted to be baptized. My mind was like, no. And I told the bishop, I said, you know what? I I don't believe all this church doctrines stuff. And he said, Why do you want to get baptized? And I said, I want to follow Jesus Christ, and he said, That's all you need. Don't worry about the rest. Okay. So we started to plan for the baptism, and he said he told me to pray about the day, and I did, and June 6th was so strong. June 6th. So May 29th. Samuel's uh youngest brother. Um he had been struggling with uh substance abuse and uh hadn't even been diagnosed with schizophrenia. So May 29th, he took his own life and my sweet mother in law found him. And as as soon as we heard, we ran down to the house and I was very, very close with her. So I ran in the house and I sat down on the couch next to her and I threw my arms around her and the first words out of her mouth Sarah, please don't change your baptism. I'm like, You just found your son. Who cares about a baptism? And she begged me, please, please don't change it. I'm like, well, we'll see. We'll see. This is traumatic what we're dealing with here. And I'm like, we'll see. So the next day we sat down with our bishop and you know, told him what happened. And Sam's like, we gotta put Sarah's baptism off way down the road. And Bishop said, you know, if they plan the funeral for the sixth, then we'll reschedule your baptism for the 13th. But if they plan the funeral for the 13th, keep your day for the sixth. Well, they planned the funeral for the 13th. And so the sixth was the day. And it's amazing how God's hand is in things because that was so healing for my mother-in-law. She needed that. And I'm telling you, my my baptism was remarkable. It was remarkable. I once again was transformed. And I wanted to just devote the rest of my life to Jesus.
SPEAKER_02I love that. Baptism is about choosing to follow Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_00It is, it's not about a church, it's not about a church, not about an institution. And that that was not my reason for getting baptized. It solely was to follow Jesus. Yeah. So yeah, so here it is. Like you said, COVID. People are leaving. I'm coming. But I was fully aware of all the nonsense. Like I have this background in biotech. I'm like, I get it. Like this is nonsense. I even went up against UVU to tell them this was nonsense. Oh, that was that was fun. Um, I did not agree with how the church was handling it. Um, but it's like, okay, the church is infallible, the leaders are infallible. I was giving them grace and like they can have their opinions. I don't agree. And it it bothered me, but I I gave them grace. Um, so after my baptism, my first calling was uh relief society teacher, which I really had a lot of fun with. I'm coming with a very different perspective and stories, and they loved it. It was that was I didn't do your typical relief society lessons.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome that you were able to do. I was not typical singles word Sunday school teacher either, but they let me do it, so I was like, gotta stay just long enough to do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But but I enjoyed that. And then um in March of 2021, I was called as a second counselor in the primary presidency. And May of 2021, I spoke in state conference and shared my comeback story. It was like a big deal, and and it touched a lot of people, so so that was good. And then on July 4th, 2021, I got my restoration blessing by the state president. So all my previous blessings from the temple, blah, blah, blah, was all restored. Now it it actually really was a pretty powerful blessing for me at the time. Uh, very spiritual. And so Samuel and I prepared to go back to the temple. Now I was really nervous about going back because I did not have a good experience previously. So uh I think it was by August 3rd or 4th, 2021. We went back to the temple. Now, my bishop had assured me enough changes had happened. He says, You should have a better experience, and I did. It was a better experience. Um, and so I I actually came to really love it, and I was very devoted and would go weekly for for years. So um, but during my time in primary, I you know, I was I was still struggling with some things. There were things that were bothering me, and of course, polygamy was a big one still, and I prayed about it quite a bit, and uh, and the Lord told me in my personal revelation, be patient, the answers will come. I said, Okay, I'll wait. And he made me wait for a few years, actually. So also that same year, um in January of 2021, my mother-in-law did pass away. And a year and a half later, June of 2022, my mother passed away. So we lost all of our parents. My father-in-law was in 2019, so within a short amount of time, we lost all four of our parents. So uh May of 2022, I graduated uh with my bachelor's in biotech and jumped right into graduate school that fall and got my master's in integrative and functional medicine with concentration in nutrition. We're gonna talk more about that. And Alzheimer's and memory loss. So it was pretty intense. Um in May of 2024, I was released from the primary presidency, and it was that summer that the answers finally started to come. So I first found Connor Boyak, his channel, and and he introduced a lot of the false traditions in the church. He's like the gateway drug in the church. He is the gateway drug. Like I was like, oh man, and I was just latching on like everything he was talking about, like, yes, yes. Uh, then of course I found Michelle Stone and Rob Fotheringham, Mark Curtis with Hemlock Knots, and Jeremy Hoops, Del Mormon, Karen Hyatt, Woe and Tilly Scribes, and Justin Griffin who killed Jelda Smith. And that actually was not a surprise to me because my brother had uh shared that idea with me way back. Interesting. So wow. So watching that, I was like, mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know that. Yep. Um, so in one of the hemlock knots videos, I was surprised to see uh my nephew, Dustin Grady, pop up. And just a quick story about uh my history with Dustin. So he's he's only 10 years younger than me, and we grew up pretty close. Um, but when I left the church the first time, it kind of created uh a distance be in a lot of my family relationships, so you know, we kind of grew a little bit distant. And so funny though, but here I'm coming back to church when he's leaving. So we were still kind of distant. But there he was on this video, and it was really well done. So I I just texted him a little compliment, you know, and we'll come back around to to Dustin. So that September, September 2024, I got called to be the Relief Society president.
SPEAKER_02Well, they moved you up in the ranks really fast for being comrades. They wanted to lock you in.
SPEAKER_00It's so true. Yeah, yeah. And I I had already been getting some impressions for a few weeks. So I was like, oh, dang it. I was like, okay. And I accepted right away. So my husband Sam was like, oh, you can think about it. You can think about it. I was like, no, I I already know. Really, you can take some time to think about this. The Lord's already told me, so I but I I was aware of there's a lot of excess nonsense in the in the church, a lot of excess stuff.
SPEAKER_02A lot of culture you have to navigate, especially if you are a true Christ follower. You've got to do a lot of mental acrobatics to fit it in, especially if you're in leadership and you're up at the top, and then you really have to navigate all the culture and all the people that like or don't like the culture.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. So I uh I went to the temple seeking instructions, like what do I do with this calling? And and he took me to um Third Nephi when Christ came to the the Nephites and he ministered one by one. He's like, That's what I want you to do. Because I was like, Okay, I told my presidency, I'm just gonna minister one-on-one, and you guys can take care of all the rest. They were awesome, so they just kind of you know picked picked up the rest and ran with it. So I I really did spend a lot of time with the sisters in that ward because it was a lot of um elderly in my ward, high percent, um, a lot of widows and single sisters. So I would go in one-on-one visit for three, four hours. So I spent a lot of time with these ladies. Um, and then of course, whenever I would do counsel in relief society, I was like trying to teach a little bit about the doctrine of Christ.
SPEAKER_02And well, and I want to point this out too. This is why I don't think that every individual in the church is evil or in sin or doing the bad the bad things, because we see an example from your story that you were trying to truly follow Jesus, like ministering one by one. That is taught by Jesus, right? Right. And so it's not the people that are all corrupt, although there are a lot of corrupted people, but it's the institution that is corrupted and it's the leadership that is corrupted, and that's where we start to see problems. It is not just all the individuals. Right. We're not anti-Mormon here, we're anti-Satan, okay?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so true. Yeah, so by January of 2025, I after, you know, delving into all of these podcasts and videos, and I was really starting to struggle and question and the temple I was starting to really have a hard time with, but I kept going. Why? I kept thinking, well, surely we're not doing all this work in vain. We can't be doing all this work in vain. I kept going, like, okay, even though it was like this is weird, but I'm going. And um spring of that year, uh, I got this message in the temple that we were supposed to move, so we started looking for a house to move. And um in June, I I got my temple recommend renewed, and in July I stopped going cold turkey. I was like, okay, you know, I'm done.
SPEAKER_02So is that because of all the awakenings you were having from watching these things? You're like, can't do temple anymore.
SPEAKER_00I can't do it anymore. Okay. So four years. Uh I attended the temple four years and I was like, done. And that's when I discovered Adam Boyle and um and another channel called Real Mormonism.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00My n my nephew, Dustin Gradian, Josh Josh. Josh shown. And and so I started, I mean, I felt like I was drinking from a fire hose, like watching all these videos and just really starting to wake up to everything. And at that point, I was really getting prompted to to reach out to Dustin. And I finally texted him, and I felt so bad. I'm like, I'm so sorry. I've I think I've misjudged you. I need to come and hear your story. And he's like, come on over. So it was in August, and when over sat down with him and his darling wife, Mellie. We all shared our stories together and and just totally reconnected. And and then I had this instant community that they were involved with. And I was like, Oh, I've got someone to go to, you know, now and to talk to. And so I was feeling myself again withdrawing from church and going to the church.
SPEAKER_02Were you still Relief Society president at this time? So how are you navigating being the relief society president and waking up and being like, all of this is a lie?
SPEAKER_00It was hard. I was still ministering now because I was going to their homes and just loving them and ministering to them, but I was having a hard time going to church.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, and because now you're also now hanging out with all of the the OGs of we it one foot in each uh in each world.
SPEAKER_00What a hard place. Holy cow. Yeah, it it was a hard place. And and I now I was desperate to move because I thought I I don't want anybody to find out I'm withdrawing again. No, I don't want family to know, I don't want friends to know. How embarrassing. Like, I'm doing this again. And what year was this? Last year.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you joined, and then just like two, three years you're out again. That's why.
SPEAKER_00I was like so embarrassed. I was like, you're gonna think I'm such a flake. Um, and so I just I just decided we're gonna move to Mantai. I had a nephew in Mantai who was um remodeling a house. I'm like, we're just gonna move to Mantai and rent his house. And so August, I told uh the bishop, we're moving, you need to find a new relief society president. And and then the end of September was my last time I went. And so it was this big farewell. I shared my testimony for the last time. I'm saying goodbye to the relief society, everyone's crying, it's just you know, this big farewell. And the next day I'm getting this strong impression, you need to go look at that house in Mantai. So we drove down, I started to walk through it, and I was like, oh no, this is wrong. Oh no, what do we do? I just said goodbye to everybody. We we gotta find a house fast. So uh for the next two months, I was just frantically searching for a house, and nothing was opening up. And in uh December, I two times in my personal revelation, he's like, I need you here just a little bit longer. Like, what do you mean, just a little bit longer? You're a little bit longer, my little bit longer. It's like, oh no. And and it took the bishop a long time to find a new relief society president. I wasn't released until the end of November.
SPEAKER_02But you were still there, just not going.
SPEAKER_00I wasn't going to church anymore. I just sort of disappeared. Oh my goodness. People are starting to notice. Wait, you're still you you haven't moved, but where are you? You're not coming to church. So um, yeah, that was that was a little awkward. So we we realized we had to stay put. Um and all this while I was wondering, should I remove my name from the records again? And I kept praying by it, like, should I do this, Lord? And nope, not yet, not yet. And I started to get this feeling like, oh no, I wonder if I'm gonna go through the experience of being excommunicated. But I thought, well, that's not gonna happen for a long time. Like, I don't have a YouTube channel, I don't have a podcast, I don't have followers, like uh. But I by then I had um studied polygamy for a good year and a half. I felt pretty confident in my knowledge and understanding of it. So I decided to get brave, and in December I started to share things on Facebook, just started posting little things, and and then I started to post things about the false traditions of the church. So I did a post on uh the false tradition of follow the prophet, and then I did another post on the false tradition of a prophet will not lead the church astray. So I was getting brave. So I I did you know a good handful of of posts. I didn't think anything of it really. I didn't think very many people had read my post, but um on February 7th, I got a text from the stake president. I was really shocked, and he said, Um, I'm a little concerned with some of your posts, and I'd like to invite you to come and meet with me and my counselors. I'm like, what?
SPEAKER_02That's so wild. What from Facebook posts, from Facebook posts? Man, they're cracking down now.
SPEAKER_00I guess so. They're cracking down. It it really surprised. I mean, this this just top skip jumped right over the bishop level.
SPEAKER_02Right to the state president.
SPEAKER_00Right to the state president. So this was really awkward because I'm friends with the whole state presidency. So the state president was my husband's boss.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that makes it worse. That was awkward. Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00And and so coming back to the church, I I you know got in with them, and then as a relief society president, I spent time with them and lots of experiences with these guys, and so I was like, this is so awkward. And so that night I I went to bed and I was like, I do not want to meet with them. I can't bear the thought of facing them. But I was like, Okay, Lord, um if you want me to meet them, I will. Okay, just let me know in my heart and mind when I wake up. And so the next morning I woke up and said, damn it. I have to meet with him. So I texted him. And uh I said, okay, I'm willing to meet with you, but I'm bringing someone with me. And he said, Okay, fine. And I didn't even ask Samuel because I was like, this would be so awkward for him. So I was like, I'm not even gonna ask him to come. So instead I asked my nephew.
SPEAKER_02You're a dust. Again, an OG of the first.
SPEAKER_00Uh so the the meeting was on March 17th, and or sorry, uh, February 17th. And so we showed up and uh the president kind of took us by surprise by right off the bat, right on Dustin. Now, who are you? Where do you stand with the church? What you know, I was like, Oh yeah, well, uh I I consider myself a Mormon, and um but I'm I'm gonna apostate according to the Brighamite Church, but I I believe in the Book of Mormon. I have a testimony of Jesus Christ. I'm a Mormon, but yeah, I'm gonna apostate according to the Brighamite Church. Thanks. So glorious. I know that's fantastic. I'm like, you just set the stage right there. Thank you. It was so funny. So I just I wanted the meeting to be just me sharing uh my my journey, where I was coming from, where I was at. So they just opened it up to me, and I was really open and I was really honest, and I was sharing all these things, and they were inquisitive, they were asking questions and getting clarification, and so the meeting lasted an hour, and so we left. And I oh oh, but but at that meeting, um, the president, after hearing everything, he gave me an ultimatum. So he said, Okay, so you um you need to take your post down, not not post anything on these topics again, and to not even speak. Not even speak to anyone about these things.
SPEAKER_02That's wild. He asked you to not speak to anyone like in your personal life about these things. Right.
SPEAKER_00Why do they just want to shut us up? I was like, that's censorship. That's that is that's extreme censorship.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh. It's this idea that uh ideas that are different than what we're teaching is dangerous.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And that is dangerous, not letting people speak freely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Crazy. Yeah, so that night I didn't sleep well. Um, I I got up really early and I wrote a long letter to the three of them because I just felt like because of their questions they were asking me, I'm like, I don't either I'm not expressing myself well or they're not hearing me. So I wrote this long letter, and that next day I texted it to the three of them. And so for the next few days, we were texting back and forth. And again, I was very open, very honest. They were asking questions, but they they kept inviting me to come talk to them. Why didn't you come talk to us? I said, Well, I I took my questions to God, but they kept asking me, Well, why didn't you come and ask us? And I said, No, I took my questions to God.
SPEAKER_02I mean, and scriptures, like holy cow, that is the illustration. These leaders want to be in between you and God because that gives them power, it does, and that that power-hungry attitude, even if you don't realize that that's what you have. I'm sorry, nobody comes between you and God. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and so that they couldn't hear that. That's why they kept asking me, Well, you know, come in come and talk to us, we'll give you a different perspective. I said, I know the other perspective. I know, I mean, I spent years back in the church. I read nothing but church books, church magazine. I listened to every single conference talk and reread every single conference talk. Like, I know where the church stands on these things. So So this is why I took it to the Lord. And so anyway, so we texted back and forth for a few days and then it was quiet for several days. And the next week I dared to post another.
SPEAKER_02You're so brave. Oh my goodness. I'm not going to just not take it down because I post more.
SPEAKER_00And so I posted a little video on how the Pharisee mindset is still present in the church. And I mean, I I didn't it didn't get any comments or you know, I didn't think much of it. But I'm telling you, I was being watched.
SPEAKER_02I think the state presidency felt a little condemned by that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. They took a little personal. But were you aware of the committee in the church?
SPEAKER_02Um strength the church members committee. Yeah. Uh so will you explain what that committee is to our realists?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so they they founded, they they put that together back in 1985. It's been around a long time. And and from my knowledge, they hire on ex-CIA agents. Oh my word. Well, you do know that the CIA um recruits from BYU, right? Yeah. Yeah. So my gosh. So it it I mean, the name is kind of funny, Strengthening Church Members Committee. It's a spy network, really. Wow. So they were watching me because within hours of posting that video, the state, boom, state presidency texted me. That's wild. And he said, because you are not accepting correction, we have to hold a ch uh uh membership council. Like, whoa! What is happening? Like this is so fast. Yep. This is so fast. And so on um February uh 28th, um, they I was delivered the the official letter announcing the inviting me to the count membership council. Official letters get an official letter.
SPEAKER_02It's such a legal deal. Yeah. For a church. It's not a church, guys. Okay, this is not a church.
SPEAKER_00It's a corporation. Yep. It is, it really is. Um, and I also got delivered a three and a half page letter from the presidency. So they were um telling me I was being blinded, I was um being deceived, they were quoting a lot of scripture at me, and I mean this was like a lot of turmoil going on in me.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you know, I was thinking, if they ever did a membership council, there's no way, no way I would show up to that. Like I just would not even show up.
SPEAKER_02Unless God tells you to, right?
SPEAKER_00I prayed, God, I don't want to go. But if you tell me, damn it, I have to go. That's your response. I'm sorry, God. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna have to go. Um, but I was uh you're allowed to bring people with you to kind of be your advocate, advocate for you. So I was thinking, okay, I would like to bring a few, you know, a couple friends, maybe a sister. And so I was texting the president, like, okay, I was, you know, thinking of bringing a few people, and he's like, I need to know who they are, what their standing is in the church, who their bishop is. I need to know, I talked to their bishop, and I was just like, wow, okay, this is okay. This is a lot. So the next day, um Samuel and I went for a long walk and had a really long talk, and he has the ability to view things from every angle, every perspective. And so he was really trying to help me to to see where these men were coming from and to see from their point of view, because to them I'm like changed overnight. They they didn't know I'd been on this journey for years, a couple years. And uh so I was like, okay, okay, I can understand. And um so he also suggested that we that I not invite anybody, that we just go the two of us. So that was that was hard for me because I I was like, I need support. So I I texted the president and said, Okay, um, I won't be bringing anyone, and it's just me and Samuel, and you know, I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. It's just so he softened right up, and so the next couple days I I spent um writing my statement letter because I I could read a statement. So um March 3rd. Uh the council was held on on March 3rd, the evening of March 3rd, just very recent. And so we showed up, and it was the state presidency and the clerk to record everything, and my bishop. Now it's a new bishop now, but he was the counselor in the bishopric when I came back. So now he's the bishop. So I've got a lot of history with him. Wow. So this is really awkward. So um I had my my statement letter, and he said, Do you want to read that first? And I said, Yes. So I'm gonna read it right now. Okay, okay. Go for it. I want to say first and foremost that Jesus Christ brought me back to him six years ago. I have a firm and strong testimony of Jesus Christ. He is my savior, my redeemer, and my messiah. I seek to follow him and be his disciple. I know the doctrine of Christ. His gospel is true. And I seek to follow his gospel with all my heart, might, mind, and strength. I seek to follow his will and obey all he commands me to do. I know the Book of Mormon is true. I know it is the Word of God. I know Joseph Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon by the word of by the power of God. I know Joseph and Hiram were true prophets, seers, and revelators. This is my testimony, and I have borne witness to these truths many times. My testimony was never based on the church as an institution. I knew of its fallibility when I came back. I also knew the fallibility of the leaders. But that is why I place all my trust and faith in my Lord Jesus Christ. That being said, I know this membership council is not about my testimony, but I wanted to share it nonetheless because I believe our testimonies are one of the most important things we have. I do understand that this membership council is concerning my standing with the church as an institution. I understand that the things I believe in and have shared publicly are not acceptable or in alignment with church doctrines, church policy, and church leaders. I completely understand where you, my friends, are coming from. I have been as upfront and honest as I can. And although I feel that perhaps I may have been may not have been able to express myself well, which may have resulted in misunderstanding of where I am coming from, I'm not here to debate scriptures or doctrine. Know that I do not take these things lightly. I take these things most seriously, especially the truth about polygamy and the false traditions found in this church. I feel strongly that we need to correct our wrongdoings as individuals and as a church. I have come to know and understand exactly what the doctrine of Christ is, and I now follow it unfailingly. God invites us to ask, seek, and knock, and so I have been seeking, studying, searching, pondering, and praying for nearly two years on many of the church doctrines. And while I have quietly been on this journey these past two years, I have involved God every step of the way. This must have come as a shock to you, my friends, as it must have appeared that I changed overnight. I can imagine the hurt and sadness you must feel, and for that I am truly sorry. I know there is always a possibility of being deceived by the adversary. We are all subject to that deceit, even the very elect, which is why I follow Jesus Christ and involve him in my everyday life. I have been earnestly seeking and searching for answers and understanding through intense prayer and deep study in the scriptures. I seek to be taught by the Holy Spirit. I truly believe with all my heart that the answers and understandings given to me are from God. As I began to find answers and understanding, I of course wanted to share it. I began to recognize the false traditions of the fathers found in this church, and I wanted to root them out of my own life and encourage others to do the same. Forgive me if I have come across as prideful or arrogant. I've definitely struggled with that in my life before. I'm trying hard not to fall into that trap now. I recognize we are all on our journeys with our beliefs and convictions, and I want to respect where others are at. I know you feel like you're doing exactly what God would have you do, but I too feel with all my heart I am on the path God set me on. I know God allowed me to go on my journey through the New Age movement. I learned very valuable lessons on that journey. I know God guided me back to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I know God called me to be the Relief Society president. I know I was meant to experience all that I did in the church so I could learn all the valuable lessons He had for me. I don't discount any of my experiences, not even my restoration blessing. I'm so sorry that you've been put into such a difficult position. I know this is hard for all of us. It has weighed heavy on all of our hearts. I know that you need to do what you feel is best, no matter how hard it is, but know that I will never have hard feelings towards any of you. I want each of you to know how much you have impacted my life for the better. I thank each of you from the bottom of my heart for your love and friendship. I hope and pray that the outcome of this meeting will not change our friendships. Please know of my sincere love for each of you.
SPEAKER_02So I think your testimony is absolutely beautiful. Thank you. And I am appalled. I'm very stunned that the men could hear something like that and still kick you out of the church because what happened here is the church lost a very faithful member. Thank you. A member that truly loves Jesus and is gonna bring other people to Jesus, and that is what saves us is Jesus. Exactly. That's it, exactly. So, but I also think that um the Lord is putting you on a journey that is absolutely beautiful, and you're gonna find people you never knew before. And so, but that kind of a testimony is what's gonna change this whole world. And so the Lord needs you in more than just a church, he needs you in this whole world.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, and and uh that's what's astonished me through this because you look in the church handbook, and the definition of an apostate is one that is pe speaking publicly against what I said, church doctrine, church policy, and church leaders. That is their definition of an apostate.
SPEAKER_02No mention of Jesus, it has nothing to do with Jesus, it has nothing to do with Jesus. That's why I really believe the church doesn't have anything to do with Jesus. I think individuals in the church can have something to do with Jesus. Yeah, the church itself, they have nothing to do with Jesus. This is just a big power glory trip now. Right. And your story illustrates that. So, what was the response of the men in the room after you read this very powerful letter?
SPEAKER_00Well, they they said they were touched and um thanked me and thanked me for all my service and everything. Samuel had a chance to to say something. He didn't type his up, but he just spoke straight from the heart and was my absolute advocate. And um, and then each of them um expressed uh love to me and friendship. I mean, it was there was no contention in this whole meeting, and I'm grateful for that. And they did express a lot of love and compassion, and um, so after everyone had their say, you know, the the the presency in my my bishop and um uh he once again invited me to to correct to correct or to correct your testimony of Jesus? Like I know that's so wild. It is it is crazy. And um, and I uh by then I just had tears streaming down my face. I said, I cannot. I cannot stay silent. So they invited us out, and the three in the presidency, they prayed and deliberated. It took them about 15 minutes and then invited us back in, and and he said, uh, with with heavy hearts, but also with peace, we're removing your mothership. And uh he had to read through that nonsense of of what it means to be excommunicated and all the restrictions. What were all the restrictions? Oh you can't pray at church, you can't share your testimony, you can't make comments, you cannot even read the scriptures in class. I mean, you're s it's just everything stripped. Everything as he's reading through all of that. I I'm I'm just crying because in in my heart and my mind I'm thinking you have no right to strip my covenants that I have made with my Lord. You have no right to strip that from me. Um and so they the the the meeting ended. They each embraced me warmly, expressed love and friendship to me. So the whole thing lasted about 75 minutes.
SPEAKER_02It wasn't terribly long, so but man, it it's it's a weird experience to go through, and very emotionally taxing because we're taught our whole lives that like the church is everything, like the church is almost not almost the church is synonymous with God in uh and so to be stripped of it all, you suddenly feel like something in your character has been deflated. Yeah, it's a really hard thing to go to, and this has actually been a conversation on some of the awake Facebook groups is is this a joyous experience or is it horrible?
SPEAKER_00It's both, yeah, it's both, it really is, and um so yeah, I I I've been going through these stages of grief, which it surprised me uh because by the end of it, I was like, fine, I'm done with this corporation. This is ridiculous, but wow, I was I was surprised with with these stages that I've been going through, and you know, in large part it's um my relationships, you know, because I being a president, I mean I had a lot of yeah. So, what's the aftermath been like for you with people? Right. So um this past week, um I thought, man, I I want to reach out to uh my friends in the ward and tell them myself I before this gets out. So I started to text all my friends, like I I need to visit with you, I need to share some things with you. And um three, which I hesitate to say who, but I'll leadership positions. Um I texted them and um a husband and wife and wanted I just said I want to come. I was friends with them, I said I wanna come and just share my journey. They already knew what had taken place, but I said, I just need to share my journey with you. You know. And he responded, no. We're not willing to have that conversation. And I said, But you don't understand. I just wanna I I'm not coming to debate. I'm not coming to shove my beliefs down your throat. I just I just wanted to tell you where I'm coming from and how I got here. And uh again said, No. No good would come of it. And and then I had already made um an appointment or scheduled a time to meet with another sister in in the ward, and right after he said that she texted me and said, I've been thinking we shouldn't meet. No good would come of it.
SPEAKER_01So that was really painful. And were these some of the men on the council that were supposedly so loving at your excommunication?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that was hurtful. Yeah, but I'm you know what? I'm I'm not angry. I'm not holding anything against them. I I get it. I get that mindset, I get where they're coming from, and I know that they are afraid. Yeah, I understand, and so I don't hold it against them. I've I've had quite a few uh conversations with with other friends in the ward, and they've been wonderful, really wonderful, and and then my family's been phenomenal. And so with my family, half are in, half are out. So um, but they have been just absolutely loving and supporting, and so I'm so grateful. I'm so so grateful. That's wonderful.
SPEAKER_02You will go along in your journey and you'll find that there will be a large variety of responses to you being excommunicated. Right. But I like to think of it as the people that are against you now, hopefully someday they're gonna have a moment in their own journey that they're like, Right, oh my goodness, remember when Sarah said this? Yeah, and that's why I think sometimes God asks us to go through these things that you know, you know, your response, damn it. Because it could be for the benefit of somebody else.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And through this experience, I mean, I have never in my life been brought to this level of humility and humiliation. Right. But this is what he asks us to do. Are you willing to go to this level for me?
SPEAKER_02And when Paul talks and he says, Don't think it's strange that this fiery trial has come upon you. Yes. This is what Jesus did for us. So do we think we're any better than Jesus? It's okay that we go through these things. And that's what makes it joyous on the other end, is that Jesus is walking with us. It's a refining moment for us and all the people you're interacting with right now. Exactly. It's I think it's probably even refining for the people that are already awake and out of the church. Okay. So that's why God requires this. He traveled the depths of suffering. Yes. Why would we not have to suffer too?
SPEAKER_00Exactly. So yeah, I'm, you know, I'm still kind of in the thick of it. Um, just barely coming out of it. But um, I, you know, the conversations I'm having, it's people are wondering, like, what the heck just happened? I mean, it was boom, boom, boom, boom, so fast.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Over some Facebook posts. Like, I'm shocked. I'm shocked how fast this happened.
SPEAKER_02I think there's quite a movement coming forth. There is the the truth about who killed Joseph Smith, the truth about polygamy, the truth about prophets being infallible, okay, the truth about Pharisees and the church. SRA coming in. It's a huge one. It's huge. All these things are coming really fast, and the church is like, we gotta shut these people up. Okay. We gotta shut them up because they don't they work in lies. They don't want the truth.
SPEAKER_00So maybe it's a compliment. Am I actually am I that influential? I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. Obviously, we're to them apparently. Obviously, hit them somewhere. So, um, what's your plan now? What are you gonna do moving forward?
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna keep on sharing. I mean I yeah, so I'm I'm delving in more in depth than ever before on on you know the the gospel, the doctrine of Christ and his teachings. And yes, I I do want to start my own. I want to start two YouTube channels, one on one on the truth about the gospel and and one on the truth about health and nutrition. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing. And this world needs those messages. We really need it. We live in a really sick world, sick sick in all levels, yes, sick spiritually, physically, mentally, absolutely. And so we need those messages. Everybody needs those messages. So wonderful. Do you think you'll ever return to church again?
SPEAKER_00No, not at this point, no. I I I know some some people still go. I mean, I have friends that are out but keep going because they feel that's where they need to be. I have not felt that. And all through this, you know, the last time I went to to church was the end of September, and I I I kept checking in. Lord, do you need Me to go. It was like, nope, that's not where I'm to be right now.
SPEAKER_02Everybody has a mission in this life that they need to fulfill. And the most important thing we can do is fulfill what God has told us to. Right. And I think the church makes it very difficult for those of us in this place that you can't fulfill, you're not allowed to speak. Right.
SPEAKER_00To be silenced like that.
SPEAKER_02It's it's yeah. I actually think there's also a level of protection that is over you when you're out of the church. And so that's the other joyous end of it is that you are protected when you get out of the institutions, leave Babylon. Okay, we just did an episode on this. How many stories? Bottom of Jerusalem, Babylon. Okay, get out. Get out. You've just entered your wilderness journey. And oh yeah, it's hard. But it's so like you're gonna learn so much. And I'm so excited for you and what you're embarking on. I know, I know. Okay, so how do you find clarity? You have been through a lot just in the past month. In one month. How do you find clarity in your life now?
SPEAKER_00Spending time with with the Lord. And so for years, I I always uh ended my day reading scriptures. That that was my evening um thing I did. And then more recently, I just kept feeling like, no, I need more, I need more time with him. And so I started to get up early. I I don't love getting up really early, but I've been getting up between 5 and 5:30 in the morning and spending two hours in the scriptures, and my goodness, it it's changing things. Once again, I feel like, oh, I'm being transformed again, spending that time with him. And then this is my little um personal revelation book. And so that's that's the other piece of it. So spending time with the Lord in scriptures, we have to practice getting personal revelation. It's not an instant thing. And I, you know, I can look back through this and read past revelations and go, oh, I think I was a little off on that one, and then read another one, go, that definitely was the Lord. And so when you write those down, you learn how to recognize his voice to you because we each hear him a little bit differently. It's not the same. And so when you write your personal revelations down, yeah, it's not gonna be 100% correct, but when you go back and reread, you start to learn and recognize his voice. And the more you spend time in scriptures and spending time with him, the more clear his voice comes through.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I love that so much. The best thing we can do is spend time with our Savior. Absolutely. And his voice will keep coming through clearer and clearer. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Sarah, for joining us on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I thank you, Claire. It was delightful to visit with you.
