LDS Missionaries Revealed

Join us for this episode of the Clairity Podcast where we find Judi Madsen waking up to the truth about the church right after she sent her son on an LDS mission!  In this episode we discuss everything from the church's response to covid, to wondering why we didn't know about the Freemason connection to the temple!  We also discuss the current state of the LDS mission, what these kids are really like, and how Judi's faith-filled son is navigating missionary companions steeped in vile behavior.  Tune in for the full episode!
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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of the Clarity Podcast. This week's guest is Judy Madsen, and she is 44 years old and currently resides in St. George, Utah. If you guys tuned in to our episode with me and my husband about the missionary that is currently in Brazil and having a lot of struggles on his mission, this is that missionary's mom, and we are really excited to hear her story and then to hear her connect dots about what is going on in the church right now and what they're currently experiencing with their son on the mission. Everyone has a journey they are walking, and along that road, we are met with potholes, road bumps, rain, storms, and sometimes just fog.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

But through it all, we're really just looking for one thing: clarity. Clarity so we can walk with confidence in that next step. There's one source I run to for that clarity. In the darkest of nights, just often light that shines like this. Welcome to the Clarity Podcast, where we find clarity through the wonderful dance.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

So, Judy, tell us a little bit about your background to start. Um, what was your Mormon dynamic growing up?

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Okay, um, definitely born and raised. I'm very LDS. Um, I am seven of eleven children, my mom and dad, um, very committed to the gospel. Um I I feel like uh even though we were fully immersed in the church, I do feel like my parents had a were centered on Christ. And so there was that dynamic. Um, while the church was very much in our lives, I feel like my parents uh just definitely focused on Christ. So um, as far as my baptism, I do actually remember it. I know a lot of people don't remember it at eight. I loved it. I knew, well, at least in my mind, in my eight-year-old mind, I felt like I knew what I was doing, and that um when I went down into the water and I came up and I just felt so warm and so clean, and I have a beautiful um memory of my baptism. So so that's that's kind of where we're there.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Okay, so you had a close relationship with Christ from childhood. Were there any moments of awakening or enlightening in your childhood that maybe were a wake-up call or that were hard for you being raised LDS?

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Um, I don't know if it was that I recognized it as LDS because everything was that the church is true, you know, these are the Lord's prophets, we follow them. Um, you know, obviously Jesus is the head of the church. Um, however, when I was so right after my baptism, my youngest brother died. And um, so this uh, you know, and back then it was just called SIDs. And um anyways, uh I I remember it was a very uh pivotal point of my life. And um I watched my older siblings, you know, perform CPR and all that stuff. Um anyway, uh after that time I then became a victim of sexual abuse. And um I I guess within the church it feels like there's a lot of um guilt and shame that goes to victims instead of like hope and healing. And so um I guess during that time I it was when I was younger and um as as a teenager, like the abuse stopped, thankfully for me, but it went on um to happen to my sister. And um anyway, I just from that time I had a lot of guilt and shame associated with that aspect. Um I don't know. I don't know really how to explain it other than it's super uncomfortable to talk about, but it was something that was part of my life. And um, while I did have those struggles, um I was able to try and connect with God. Um I was not very good at reading, but I did try to read the Book of Mormon several times. And it wasn't until um I my I met my husband in high school and um I waited for him on his mission. It's pretty cool. Um but I made a goal to really study the scriptures while he was gone, and I believe that that is when I really connected with like the Book of Mormon. I felt it was true and all of those things. So I guess I don't know, just trying to balance all of those emotions and feelings and for sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Can you kind of get into this a little for us? What was the guilt and shame? What did that look like in the church? And like I guess, did you have any help when this happened to you? Was there anyone safe you could go to? What did that look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 5:12

So I I I don't know if it had anything like for me, it there was no question that I was gonna go talk to a church leader. So I didn't feel like I needed to talk to a church leader. I was young enough that I didn't quite understand. And I think um, as uh looking back as an adult, I didn't really feel like I had a safe place to talk because you just didn't talk about those things. Um my dad was a very uh just I think it's a boomer generation. I'll just say that. Like just closed book, you didn't talk about anything. If something bad happened, you shove it under the rug. And um, you know, my dad was gone a lot because he, you know, is traveling trying to provide for a family. So I don't um have any issues with that. But like my mom just kind of stopped and I I do remember telling her some of the things and I do remember a couple of beatings because it did happen within my family, so so um so I don't I was always told forgive your brother forgive, move on, and and I think that's the mentality of the church that the the person who has been abused needs to forgive. And like I get that, I guess, but there's a whole process where I had to learn by myself, which you know, fast forward it took me and my husband moving away from family like far away, uh, because we were in Salt Lake, it moved it took us moving away for me to finally understand what I needed to do and hand this to God because I couldn't do it on my own. So I don't know if that answered your question. It did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Do you feel like there is more protection in the church for the perpetrators than there is for the victims because of this concept that the first thing we're gonna tell you is forgive instead of addressing any healing?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Oh, 100%. 100%. Well, because I look at it like you know, it was like hurry quick, repent, go on a mission. Um, I'll just say it was a brother. And um anyway, so he he goes on a mission and everyone's like, well, he's repented, he's gone on a mission, so he's good. And um never dealing with the real problem. And um and so I don't know, and and as an adult, I've been well now I've seen like the Glenn Pace memo and all of these things that have been hid. And while I I I just don't think people understand or know what to do with us. Like they just, you know, and granted it was just sexual abuse, like it wasn't I don't know, even even in my adult year, I'm like, no, it was wrong, you know, like everything about it was wrong. And um I I don't know, I just don't think we have the avenues to talk about it because there is a lot of um it's like guilt and shame, but also in in my life and what I wanted to do with my children is to teach them because I wasn't really I don't think I really grasped this. I always had a negative um view on intimacy and stuff, like because when you're intro introduced to those feelings when you're young and you're told, hey, this is wrong, uh you just don't ever have that beautiful um view of intimacy. And so for you know, all the years of my marriage, pretty much I just had that guilt and shame associated because those feelings were never really dealt with. I guess I don't know how that really makes sense, but in my mind it does.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

So it does. What do you think leaders, parents, adults, what do you think they can do better? Because what I'm seeing as a young person interacting with a lot of young people that have been through stuff like this, I see a lot of young people that they don't have adults to go to for help. They don't have safe people to talk to. If they do go to a parent or adult, it's like, well, you need to go to the bishop and repent, even though it was an abuse case and it wasn't their fault. You know? So, and we're also sending pe we're sending these young men and young women on missions when they're addicted to porn, they have weird sexual tendencies. There's just a lot that the church, that these adults that should be protecting these kids aren't doing. So, what do you think we should do instead?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Um, well, uh from for me and my husband, uh, our we had this approach, and I always had this approach because um when I grew up, it was like, hey, do this because I said so. And with our kids, the approach was, hey, let's understand why we are doing what we're doing. You know, we would talk about this sacred power of procreation, and we would say, it is beautiful. And even though it took me so long to figure how beautiful it is, it was something I wanted my kids to know, it's okay, it's beautiful. And um, but it is something that is perfectly wonderful to save for your spouse. And so we would talk about those things, and we would, I would we would talk about Christ and his atonement and how it is real and how if you do mess up that he can help you, he can change you, you can be born again. And so I guess like as parents, I and or me and my husband, we just wanted our children to understand the why and also the consequences of sin, you know. Like it's and you know, and I still think, well, it wasn't me, I didn't do this, but it's like this the the culture makes you feel like, hey, you know, and when the protection is always for the perpetrator, you just feel like you never are enough. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

I love that. I love we have to have these open conversations, like that. I think is what broke a chain in my family, and that my mom was raised, like, you don't talk about these things. So my mom was like, we talk about these things, and that's how I stayed protected for a like my whole life. Yes, because I knew what I was up against because my mom taught me.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah, no, and and I will tell you, my kids were never abused. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Well, and that's amazing because that means you're a chainbreaker, and that's that's what we need to be. So I appreciate you talking about this topic that is a hard topic, but we need to talk about it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's get more into your story. Okay. So obviously, this had an effect on you, but you did meet your husband. You met your husband in high school. Let's continue on what happened when you met your husband.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Okay. I will tell you there is such a thing as love at first sight. And I mean, this is how how nerdy churchy we were. Like he, I the first time I saw him, he's like wearing a CTR shirt and all that stuff. But um, the first time I did see him, he was he was on the seminary council. And um, I looked up and I'm like, who is this? Like, this is the cutest guy I've ever seen. And then he started talking and he had a low voice, and I'm like, oh my word, this is it. And so we went to school for three years without ever seeing each other, but I saw him our senior year, and um I never had gone to any seminary activities. And um once I found out he was on the seminary council, I'm like, oh, okay, I'll go to the seminary activities. So we actually met at the Jordan River Temple at a temple cleanup, and um we dated that was in October of '98. And then we dated, well, we didn't start dating until March of 99. And then he left on his mission in November of 99. But I will say, um, it was like it was quick and it was fast, but I just we just knew we just loved each other. But there was one moment where I know that God told me we we went on a walk around our neighborhood, and um, I was just holding his hand, and the spirit just told me, like literally said to me, You are with your husband now. And it was so beautiful and so comforting because back then, like you hopped on a plane and you left, and you only had letters to communicate, and it was hard, probably the hardest two years of my life, you know, and you have so many emotions going on. But um, anyway, yeah, we he got home uh two years later, and we were engaged within five weeks and got married within four months. So definitely quick, much to the chagrin of some people. They weren't very happy with how fast we went, but at the same time it was right, and we loved it.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

So that's beautiful. Okay, so let's get into your church dynamic where you're getting married. Did you get married in the temple?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yes, yes, you got married in the temple. There was there was no question, right? You know, I and and there is an expectation, and so I definitely um Salt Lake Temple, that was it, right? My mom and dad got married in the Salt Lake Temple, my siblings, not all of them got married in the Salt Lake Temple, but that was just what we did, and so yes, we got married in the Salt Lake Temple and just started our life together. It was well, I mean, I can keep saying the dynamic got a little weird. Okay, in the sense that so well, first I'll tell you just a little thing to kind of back up where we're going. So when I went through the temple, um, I was like I was excited. I wasn't prepared. Nobody's prepared. They like temple prep classes don't even talk about what Right. Okay, just read Genesis and it's not even accurate. Okay, whatever. So um anyway, so like but I went through and I was going through initiatory and they gave me my name and I started sobbing. It was beautiful, and the reason it was beautiful is because it was the name that we had decided to name our daughter, all right, like our first child, if we had a daughter. And it was so I was just like, oh man, this is so special. Like, holy cow, you know, and and the woman that was helping me, she's like, um, wow, that really touched you. And then later I found out in the celestial room that um everybody else had had that same name, and it was kind of made a big to-do. And then the mission president got involved, and they're like, You can't name your child this, and and and so I yeah, so that was my that was my double experience. It was that's crazy. Well, and even then I didn't put together, I'm like, oh, like everybody has a name. So right? So so that was my experience, and then but it it just kind of we put it to the side, and my husband and I were working and going, and I just, you know, like a good little Mormon girl, I was like, we gotta go to the temple, let's go to the temple. And I I'm telling you, Claire, seriously, every time it was just pulling teeth, it was a fight, it was an unbeknownst to me, my husband hated it. Like, just absolutely hated it. And so I I didn't realize, and it took him, I'm I'm trying to think how, when he finally opened up about the temple experience with him or with me, and I think it was two years ago. So two years ago. Yeah. Well, because because you're told you're you're to love it, and you're not to ask questions, you're not to share anything.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

And if you don't love it, there's something wrong with you.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Yes, yeah. But his was pretty horrendous. And he went through in so it would have been 99. So they stopped doing all the penalty o's. Yeah. Right.

unknown 18:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

But they're still doing this stuff. And and we had no no clue, right? We're just nothing. No clue. No clue whatsoever. But um, during the initiatory, he was he felt he was basically assaulted. And then just while he was changing, there was a guy looking in, making sure I'm like, oh, and and he's had this thought, like, where was my dad? Like, he doesn't have any remember uh memory of that other than like this was his experience. And so, um, so all these years I'm sitting here going, like, what is going on? You know, and in my mind, especially because when I went through the initiatory said, you know, hearken unto your husband as you as he hearkens unto the Lord. Um, that has since changed. So that's part of my awakening. I'm like, why is it changing? So, but anyway, I've I just I had all this pressure that I would put on him and on myself. I'm like, okay, we have to do all these things to make sure we can get to the celestial kingdom. Like we if we're not going and if we're not loving it, and every time we're going, we hate it, or we're fighting, you know. I I just it it it was it was so difficult and so hard. And we didn't talk about it because he felt like there was something wrong with him. But I put him on this um, you know, the culture of the church is about authority and position. Yes. And my husband never had a call, he was never in a bishopric, he was never never called to all these things. He's introverted. Um, but I just I'm like, he is such a good man, and he loves God, like nobody's business. I've always known that about him, but I would have these fleeting thoughts. I'm like, what if I make it to the highest kingdom and he won't? Like, and and then and we've since talked about it. And he's like, I was thinking, he's like, well, what if she makes it and I don't? Like because she loves it and I don't. And the reality is I I was going out of obligation. I didn't, I I didn't ever feel like I learned things. It wasn't that I didn't ever feel peace because I did. I and I don't want to take away from anybody's experiences in the temple. Like, I know God meets you where you're at, but you know, during that time we we were all in, but at the same time, I think my husband was always kind of removed. But we were raising our kids to have this view that you know Christ is everything, and um, whatever path you take, we hope it's following him. And if that means that you are, you know, if you join a different religion or if you do something, um we, you know, then that's okay. And that was our approach with our kids because and my daughter recently, I think it was like uh like six months ago, she's like, Mom, I think you've taught us that because I think you're the one who's gonna be changing. I'm like, well, okay. So I'm like, so I had to give permission um for that anyway. Did that answer okay?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Okay. All right. So you obviously had some moments of like hindsight awakening about temples and things like that. So, but otherwise, sounds like you were a faithful member trying to do what everyone does.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Oh yeah. Okay, so what was your first like breakdown that was like something isn't right? What happened?

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Oh, COVID. Okay. I mean, I I had a few things like um before that. The Light the World campaign, it really bothered me. Be only well, only because so I I I they would always have people share, um, you know, light the world, and it would be these big influencers and all this stuff, and then I'd look at their profiles and I'm like, I thought we were supposed to be peculiar, like and not of the world. And so I had this view of like, wait a second, like what are they doing? Why are they having these people share this message? And I I don't know, it just kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

And yeah, you're supposed to not do your alms before men, but it seemed more like a social media campaign than anything else. My family, when we were like really sick, like we were in the depths of our chronic illness, we had a bishopric member come to our house, and it was during the Light the World campaign, and we told him about what we were going through and like why this is so awful. And then he just goes, Well, you guys just need to make sure that you light the world this season. And we were like dying. I was like, We were like, wait a minute. Did you hear anything we were just telling you? Right. Oh very backwards. So I get why you'd have an issue with that.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Well, I I just I'm like, this is weird. It's like getting the most popular people to share the message, you know. And I've always just had the impression, well, they taught us, you know, the the symbol of our religion is in the lives of the members. And and I'm like, these are the members you're choosing, yeah. And and obviously I'm making a judgment, and I I have no problem making a judgment because I'm like in the scriptures it says you can make a judgment. I just can't condemn anyone. So I was making a judgment. I'm like, what are you doing? Like, so I don't know. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Well, and judging behavior, you we have to judge behaviors in life, and that's what you were doing.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Well, I I mean, I think, and I've always kind of been that, and I've had discernment because I I know because of the uh the abuse, and also my dad did bless his his daughters with discernment um when we were young, and I believe God gave that to us, and so um I just I I'm like huh, that's weird. But then when COVID came around, I'm like, oh, whoa, just a second. I'm reading the Book of Mormon and I'm reading about Captain Maroni and like you know, the freemen versus the kingmen, and I'm like, wait, you guys don't believe this? Like, it's so weird. What?

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Oh so what how did you cope with COVID times? What was your response? Did you go to church? Did you not go to church? What did you guys do?

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Oh, we were fighters. Fighters. Um I was angry. I was very angry during COVID time. Um I got all political, um, you know, put my name forward for like school board that I I ended up withdrawing because holy cow, when the devil knows that you're trying to do something, he attacks. But um anyway, I I just no, we went to church and we did not wear masks. So I received Yes, and they said you can only come every other week. And we're like, we're going every week. So we did. They did uh want us to sit in the back, which is fine, we normally do because my husband's an introvert and we prefer the back anyway. But it was just kind of funny, like, you're telling us where we can sit because we're so diseased, and but there was a couple um experiences. Like, I was called to be in the relief society, the secretary during that time, and I I just told them flat, I'm like, look, you can call me, but I'm not wearing a mask. And that was before like the huge push on the the vaccine, but I was like, I'm not, I'm not doing that. And they're like, okay, yeah, no, it's cool. And so we go, and there was this one stake meeting that we were all going to, and I walk in and everybody is masked, like everyone. And I'm like, hello, hi everyone. And uh the speaker was it, uh, the counselor in the stake presidency. And he gets up and he starts talking, and I'm like, all right, I'm here. You know, I love being part of this church, even though like I'm standing for truth and righteousness, and he starts talking, and I, you know, feels like it's gonna be this talk about Jesus and all this stuff, and and then he starts in on the mask, and I'm like, what? And he's like, it's just a mask, it's not that hard. And then he goes into obedience, and I'm like, whoa. And so my face just completely drops, and I'm redder than red, because I am the only woman in a full stake center um cultural hall or whatever, not cultural hall, but the where they're anyway. Um, I was the only one there, and I'm like, this man is shaming me in front of all these women, and it was in that moment. I actually I was taught a very beautiful lesson, and that lesson was that my savior would never do that to me, that he would never pick me apart, put me on a pedestal, and then shame me in front of everyone, and so I think that needed to happen so that I could learn that I need to stop putting people in position on a pedestal because they will let you down every single time. And um, the first time I saw President Nelson in a black mask, I just it just was so revolting to me. I didn't even know what to do. And during this whole time, I have been trying to make it like okay, it's like prophesied, and and they're just doing it to keep the church safe. And then I'm like, that's weird, right? Like, like if we if we have God on our side, we don't need to like keep the church safe. And um, so I I extused I excused a lot, but I I also learned a lot. Um, that was when I awakened to a lot of toxins and food and vaccines, because I do have two vaccine-injured children. Well, they're all vaccine injured a little bit now that I look at it, because um my daughter has vitiligo, um, and my son had he he had the nonstop crying when he was a baby, and then I have my younger son with Tourette's and the other one has Asperger's. And we've done blood work and found that we have the MTHFR um gene um mutation, which explains why my brother died when he was three months old after his shots, is because you cannot um detox from the poisons. So, so this this was a really just a huge learning. It was a really angry time too. Like I just it was hard. It was really hard, and I kept trying to go and I kept trying to think, okay, these they're they're gonna pull us out, they're gonna like stand for what's right, they're gonna, and I just I think it was just this last year. Well, let me step back. My husband just kept saying, You've got to remove the layers, you have to remove the layers, and we are just worshiping Christ. And so this is how we would attend church. We would just, this is, you know, what are we converted to? Are we converted to the church or are we converted to Christ? And um, I had an interesting time. Uh uh, I I did not go to the temple during that time. I did not go during the masks because I knew how angry I would be. And um, the first time I went back, um, I went to Cedar City, the temple there, and I just was praying. I'm like, God, please tell me if this is right. Tell me, and I would I wanted him to show me where the endowment came from because like nobody could tell me where it came from. I like explained this to me, but I I didn't get an answer other than I was sitting in the in the celestial room praying, and I I just had this super of thought, and it was me making the covenant to the Church of Jesus Christ in Latter-day Saints. And I'm like, wait a minute. They told me I was covenant to to God, and at this point I had separated the two, you know. I'm like, wait, why am I and so anyway, that was that was one that I sat on for a long time, and I didn't know why I was told that, but yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

It's very interesting. I've even seen this just doing this podcast. People have accused us of slandering the church, and it's funny because to me, you slander people, you don't slander an institution. And so, but because God is synonymous with the church, it's almost like they think we're attacking a human being, like we are attacking God when we're literally just pointing out the flaws in the institution. God is not part of the evil in the institution. Okay, you just got through all the COVID stuff, you went through the temple, had a stupor of thought. So, what happened next in your journey? What was your next awakening?

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Okay, um, oh well, here's one. So I'm wearing a cross, right? Um, this is part of me removing our layers, and I'm like, I really like the cross. And I'll just read like um third Nephi, you know, because we're so focused on the atonement in the church, but when he says um in third Nephi 27, 14, and my father sent me that I might be lifted up on the cross, and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men, even so should men be lifted up by the Father to stand before me to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. And for this cause have I been lifted up. And I I when I read that, I was like, wait a minute, you're telling me we can't wear a cross. And so my husband got me a cross, and I'm like, this is why I wear a cross, because I want to remember what the father sent the son to do, right? And um the first day I went, it was really hard for me, actually. I'm like, I'm doing something so weird. I am a Mormon who is wearing a cross. This is really small thing. Wow. I know, but it was like for me, it was so big. And the first day I wore it to church, I went to relief society, and the lesson was on why we don't wear the cross.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Of course, of course, the devil would make that happen.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

I'm like, and it it was it was a pretty brutal lesson. I remember telling the girl next to me, like, wow, if I was any less of a person, I would walk out right now. But I'm like, but I knew I was going because I wanted to worship Christ and this is what I was supposed to do. So um, but this was me still piecing everything together. Um, my next um, my next thing was I was really struggling when my son wanted to go on a mission, just for the mere fact that like we've homeschooled, our our kids are always with us, and this we work together. The whole dynamic is we're always together. And I'm like, okay, but I had some really peaceful, beautiful moments where we, you know, I'm like, okay, he's gonna go on a mission, it's fine, and God will put him where he needs to be. And and when he got his call, I felt peace. And um, but when he left, I will tell you, like, as a mission mom, I I'm the worst, but my mom always said, she's like, a mission is the best kept secret in the church for the moms, and it's like death. You're sending your son off, and to it was the worst thing. I hated every single moment of when he left, and I still like I can't even go to into his room still, because I just am so like I just you know, anyway, I love him, and um I had some beautiful thoughts of like, you know, God gave his son to us, and I can give my son even it's no comparison, there's no comparison, but it's just it's those thoughts where it's like this is gonna be okay. Um, but anyway, I I could you not when he went through he he was gone, it was like a week later, and I saw this random post, and it showed me where the endowment came from, and that just blew my mind. So it's only been I guess like nine months.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Okay, so before your son left on his mission, you were like waking up but not awake, and then you woke up like right after you left. Is that right? Yes, oh my goodness, yeah, it's like the worst timing. Yeah, terrible timing. Okay, so what what did you learn about the endowment session?

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Well, like all the penalty oaths and stuff, and now I'm like, what? And I'm like, I started thinking, I'm like, I did not agree to be a Mason. That was not in my upbringing. It wasn't like, oh hey, guess what? You're gonna be an initiate in this like cult. Like it's just that was not on my that was not on my radar at all. Right. And and the thing is people like they tell you, oh yeah, it because people don't talk about it, but they're starting to now. And when they start, they're like, Yeah, it's really weird, but you just gotta keep going because then you're gonna love it. And I'm like, okay. And um, so that led to then they were talking about how Joe Smith didn't practice polygamy. I'm like, what? Like, what? I'm like, this is awesome. Because now the Book of Mormon that I know is true is like, yes, because I always struggled with the thought of polygamy. Always. And then, so this is all within like two weeks, and then I ran into the who killed Joseph Smith. Oh, it's really, really a lot in a short amount of time. And um, it's like ripped the band-aid off, and um it's interesting because there was I was just reading comments in a group I'm in, and um someone had mentioned like the Masonic symbols and the connection to the garment, and and they said it's you know, someone said some people think it's a portal for demons, and I'm like, wait a second. And so I I took mine off, and um what I didn't tell you is during this whole time I have suffered with like demon possession and just like I I wouldn't take naps because it was always like during nap time, I would feel like this entity like on me, pressing on me, and just like constantly trying to get me. And um, and I would have just all the time, and you know, and while and during this time I'm trying to figure out how I'm supposed to call in the name of of Jesus, but at the same time, still in the mind frame of that I have to ask my husband to do this for me, because that's what I was taught. And um anyway, those those experiences have stopped because he took the garments off, right? Yeah, and while people will think of me as an apostate, I'm like, wow, I'm not dealing with that, and another thing that has um freed me is the shame. So I have a full and complete and loving marriage that I never was able to experience before, and I can attribute it to that. I just I feel free. I feel free knowing that I do not have to share my husband for eternity. Like, like it's so it's so bizarre that that's what we're taught, and we're taught to just put it on the shelf, and it's like, okay, everything's okay, just put it on a shelf. And like my shelf broke, and I I see in black and white, and if I see the truth, I'm gonna grab onto it and I'm gonna hold it. So um, yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

That's beautiful. So let's get into a little bit about what your son is going through on the mission. Oh boy, I cannot imagine, like, all right, son, sending you on the mission in good faith that they're taking care of you, right? Okay, and then you wake up and you're like, they're not taking care of him.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

No, oh no, no, okay. I will just can I I did, I came prepared. Okay. Okay. So this is a message I got from my son while he's on his mission. Okay. This house is interesting. All they talk about are gay and sexual things. It starts to get on my nerves. I love our mission president, but he never sends people home, even when they really, really should be. All I know is I'm still standing. And I've had some great personal revelation and spiritual experiences in the midst of a house where it's hard for the spirit to be. So I know that if you're seeking God, he can meet you where you are. The truth is hard, and life for those who refuse to act like everybody else is too. Don't try to fit in the world, they got nothing for you. Um then he shares John 15 um 18. If the world hate you, you know it hated me before you uh before it hated you. Um so he shares that, and then he says, The world stinks. I learned that the mission experience is not what I thought it was. Tons of missionaries are vile and disgusting. I have no idea why they are here. But I know that God wins every battle and he can be with you in any moment. I get that there's repentance and growth, but there's a line where people need to be sent home. Anyway, he just ends it that way. And um I just I read he'd been telling us some things and how inappropriate these missionaries are, and but that email was so hard for me to read because when he went out, I we like we were able to record his message, and he was just on fire for Jesus. He wants to share the message of Jesus and the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that was his plan. So it has been like the complete opposite. It is very, very rigid in the sense that I mean, everyone talks about the numbers, but it's not so much about the numbers, it's more about like um you have an app, and you have to fill all of these different things in the app before you can even have a conversation or an interview about baptism. And um, I mean, and it is it's a lot of stuff. It's basically you cannot get baptized unless you answer all the temple questions. And um my son is reading the scriptures and he's like, where does it say that you have to answer all these things to be baptized? And so he's been struggling with that, but then in addition to that, the the elders that he has been with have been completely inappropriate. Um, he's had some that have there's like this secret handshake, you know, like where it's like, hey, like, are you game? And so um one elder did that to him, and he's like, Don't do that to me. That is not okay. And he's like, and the guy's like, oh hey, sorry, I didn't know you knew about that. He's like, just wait, you're not corrupted yet. I mean, this is oh my god, this is the mentality of the people that he is with. And um, this last house, he knows that um the one, the one particular one struggles with same gender attraction, but he was actively looking at porn. And um, so he would hide his phone, but he would like my son would never participate, but he was in a home that was just he's like, I I don't know what to do. Like, I do not he didn't feel safe. Um, one of the other companions did not feel safe, and so my son escalated it to the mission president, and he did nothing. Nothing. So we wrote our stick president, and um it then went up to the area authority, and um, we've just been emailing. We're just we just want clarity. Like, what uh what is the church's policy on this? If someone is actively doing this, shouldn't they be sent home? That was our like understanding is that you know it should be. Environ because let's face it, the church sells the mission as a beautiful spiritual wholesome, protected, like yeah, yeah, and it's been anything but um so you know that was that's been the last three weeks. Um they did have transfers and that um elder was transferred, but um like the the damage was done. It's like clearly there is no protection for anyone that feels uncomfortable um and put in a situation where it's like, hey, like I'm not gonna engage in this kind of behavior, which you wouldn't think would be on a mission anyway. Like I I just so I I did talk to my son yesterday and he said, you know, he's like, I think I needed to come on a mission to learn all of these things. And he was really sweet. He's like, I have I have grown closer to God because I've had to only rely on him because I can't, you know, he's not participating, and he's just he's doing the best he can. So right now he's just we're just kind of dealing with it, I guess. I I I guess if I, you know, uh for people that are in our situation, uh go in on the mission with your eyes open and realize that you need to prepare your kids because I f I feel like we prepared our son and he told him, you know, there could be situations, because everybody knows there's always a you know, like a situation, but um he told me he thinks that at least 90% are inappropriate and should be sent home. Wow. And he just, you know, and and uh we're all worried, we're like, we don't want this to come across as like holier than thou, but it's like, well, no, like he went out for the right reason. He he wanted to bring people to Christ, like that, and that's what we've taught him to do.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

So it's really crazy that a lot of people, when you speak out against sexual deviance, a lot of people want to pinpoint you as holier than thou, but that's crazy because the way you protect your children is by not committing sexual deviance, okay? So it has nothing to do with being better than anyone else, it has to do with these are better life choices for you and your family. The end. Like that's just how it is, and so there's no justification for these kids and these sins that they're committing. They should be sent home, they should go home and they should get help. That's what they should be doing.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Well, and I mean, you know, I I believe when Jesus said, you know, I I I feel like there's there is a kind of a teddy bear Jesus approach that's creep creeping into the church, and it's like you you do you, boo, and you're good. And I'm like, I'm reading the doctrine of Christ in the Book of Mormon and in the Bible, and he's saying, repent, be clean, no unclean thing can be in my house, and obviously none of us will ever earn it, ever. Like, I know that, and I know the role of my savior, but there is a requirement to follow him, to take up your cross, to let go of things that are temptations that are, you know, pride, all of these things, these are things that we need to deal with in the sense that we need to give them to God, and he will take them from us, and I know he will. And if we were taught that, if we were taught that it goes back to the like the guilt and shame, you know, like if you have these feelings, you know, yes, we grew up in a society that was guilting and shaming you, but instead, what we should be teaching is like, hey, like Jesus is awesome and he will save you, and he like give your heart, give your soul, give your sins to him, and he will take them and he will clean you and purify you. And I believe that with all of my heart. And I feel like we've stepped away from teaching that, and you know, and so we taught that to our kids, and so they go out and then they're like, whoa! Like, you know, and um some of the things that my the mission president said to my son were uh pr pretty rude. Like he's like, Oh, you know, explain to me like, you know, what what your definition of of okay is and you know, and I'm like, what are this kid's 18? Like, why are you asking him all these questions? And it's like they want to see how close they can get to the line of being inappropriate. And and I just have in my head, and my son has the first thing he pointed out to me, he's like, Jesus said, if you even lust, if you you know, if you even look on a woman, you know, like and that's that's the lust. And so it's like it's really, really weird. And you know, the conversations that he's been subjected to, he's like, this is unbelievable. And um just dirty, just dirty talk. And and people want to say, Oh, they're just immature.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

And I'm like, then they shouldn't be going on missions, like sorry.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Yeah, I uh I'm like, I I keep thinking of the the the armies of Helaman, and you know, they they did it because their moms taught them and they knew their moms knew it, and and that was my vision of the mission. It's like I've taught my son this, he's gonna go and share the message of Jesus, and I pray that he still does, and that he can find that. Um, but he is also on this journey with us, too. So so we shall see. I yeah, and I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

I think one of the most hopeful things is that the Lord has like a real mission for every single one of us, and it's in within our real lives, it's within, we don't have to go and live a fake life for two years, okay? We can live out our mission that God has for us right here in our real living lives. And yes, I think that there can be purpose, just like what your son said about how he's learning so much. My husband says the same thing about his mission. He's like, if I wouldn't have gone on the mission, I wouldn't have woke up because I needed that time to sit and be with God. And so God will turn it for good and he will deliver him from the circumstance. And in the meantime, we'll all be praying for your son because I would be scarred for life if I was in his place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Yeah, it's it's been pretty brutal. And yeah, and the ironic thing is my my other son just started his mission papers, and I'm like, okay. I'm like, what yeah, I I just they they all have their path, and and I I'm not gonna interfere with their path, but you know, it's it's hard. Right. It's hard.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Yeah, I believe it. Absolutely. So tell us about your place in the church now. Your records are in, I'm assuming, because your son's out of mission. Yeah. Um, so how are you navigating the church in your area? Do people know you're awake? What that what's that like for you?

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Um, so we we attend basically just sacramenting and then we leave. Um, our records are in, and I I am trying to navigate that still. So I if it were up to me, I would be okay just walking away. But I am trying to navigate that with my family, and um but I I do I do feel that I will be let out um that how that looks. I'm not sure. I um it's weird, it's hard. It's it's uh it's like this has been my whole life. Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

So um yeah. Yeah, it takes a huge paradigm shift, it's a very big paradigm shift. And I don't think I even saw the paradigm shift that was coming after I removed my records. There was a whole nother paradigm shift I had to have about my walk with Christ. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Well, and I I feel that, and I I'm not sure how if I'm like, should I delete all the friends I have on Facebook from the ward? Because I used to have a rule, no no ward members on my Facebook, but um I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

I either way, I feel like we're already a project, so it's a well, I think that you have experienced a lot of healing through Christ in your journey and a lot of clarity about where Christ stands with morals, where he stands with abuse, all these things. And we find out through this these experiences that God loves us and he's there to heal us and to deliver us. And I think your story really illustrates that. So through all your awakening, how do you find clarity in your life now?

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Well, um through Christ. I mean, I I am actively seeking him every day of my life. I I spend time with him every morning, you know, and if I miss the morning, it'll be in the evening. But I make sure that I am making time for him and that I know his word. And um there's so many times where I'm struggling and I get something I'll share really quick. Um I was just reading the other day. And um, for the Lord shall comfort Zion, He will comfort all her waste places, and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord. Joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving and the voice of melody. And I read that the other day because I feel like I'm in the wilderness, and I'm currently in the wrestle with God, trying to find where I come out of this place, but I know that he has me, and the clarity will always be him, and for that I will always be grateful for.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Yeah, I love that so much. We're gonna find clarity through him, and it's really beautiful what he's doing here with people like you. Or we're all in our place of coming out of the church, coming out of these institutions, and the Lord is bringing us together. And so I appreciate you so much coming on the podcast and sharing your story, even though you're in this very uncomfortable situation.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

Okay, very uncomfortable, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

But you have great courage because you have community here with all these people who have been through this too. And when your son comes home, he has a home here with this community of people who are in this place. So he's not alone, and you're not alone, and we're just praying for your family. And so thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We really appreciate you sharing.

SPEAKER_00 54:53

Oh, thank you, Claire.